Is it possible to see this?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:13 pm

I know that I am here
Is this more than a thought in awareness?
It's a belief, a thought which is seen as being true.
If you only know that you were dreaming, after you wake up. How do you know that you aren't dreaming this ? (albeit a "realistic' dream. - you've probably had them before.)
Dreams feel different from being awake. You usually don't know that you're dreaming, because it seems that part of your mind isn't fully functioning.

But, I don't know that this isn't some sort of a dream.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:36 pm

Dreams feel different from being awake.
Yes, but only in hindsight. Only when you are awake, after the dream is finished, do you recognise the different feel.
But, I don't know that this isn't some sort of a dream.
So, if you don't know that you aren't dreaming this, then you don't know that the following is true ?
I feel that I am here, or rather, I know that I am here.
...and if you don't even know that you are here, then you don't know ANYTHING, do you ?
Now, what are you left with ?
Beliefs. Thoughts which other thoughts say is true.
Beliefs, which make up the Story of a Self. Thoughts which by connecting to supporting thoughts, have created a complex and intricate Concept.
This is the I.
It is the only I that exists. Composed of the stuff of Thoughts. A Product of the Mind.
Show me any semblance of an I that is not composed of this, or, or
WAKE UP!!

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:03 am

...and if you don't even know that you are here, then you don't know ANYTHING, do you ?
Now, what are you left with ?
Beliefs. Thoughts which other thoughts say is true.
Beliefs, which make up the Story of a Self. Thoughts which by connecting to supporting thoughts, have created a complex and intricate Concept.
This is the I.
It is the only I that exists. Composed of the stuff of Thoughts. A Product of the Mind.
Show me any semblance of an I that is not composed of this, or, or
WAKE UP!!
Yes, the only thing I really know is that this experience exists. So I believe that there is a me, but I don't really know.

I can't show you any I which is anything else but a belief, but, as always, I don't see that there isn't an I. I understand all this intellectually, but I am supposed to "see" it in some fashion, and I don't know what would cause that to happen. I have looked plenty of times.

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Eloratea
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby Eloratea » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:21 pm

Yes, the only thing I really know is that this experience exists.
So I believe that there is a me, but I don't really know.
Are you afraid to question this belief? It is all you can do and let the answer come.

I understand all this intellectually, but I am supposed to "see" it in some fashion, and I don't know what would cause that to happen. I have looked plenty of times.
It will not be you seeing it. Dream character can't wake up. He stays in a dream. Still there is waking up from the dream.

p.s. I will be offline for some time, so leave you here with Vince. Best wishes!

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:23 pm

Yes, the only thing I really know is that this experience exists.
So I believe that there is a me, but I don't really know.
Are you afraid to question this belief? It is all you can do and let the answer come.
I'm not sure how to question the belief that there is a me. I know that there is no reason to believe it, the belief is just there. There is no evidence that there is a me. I can't find a me anywhere. Intellectually, I'm convinced that there is no me already.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:59 pm

how to question the belief
Beliefs are thoughts that other thoughts say is true. (it's a little more complex that this, involving thoughts that have had a particular response physically since birth (the birth of thinking)) Once accepted (as true) they are stored unconsciously, at which time responses to them (beliefs) don't require the gate keeper of the mind any more. So they seem to be just automatic responses.
To question them only requires seeing them for what they are, stories. The tricky part here is to SEE them in a raw state, before all of the supporting thoughts arrive. Before diversion takes place.
The thought itself is not questioned. That is real. It's the content that is seen to be just a weaving of illusions into something that seems concrete.
See if you can recognise the incredible ability of mind to create stories. EVERY thought is part of a story. A new story (very occasionally), or an existing story.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:14 am

how to question the belief
Beliefs are thoughts that other thoughts say is true. (it's a little more complex that this, involving thoughts that have had a particular response physically since birth (the birth of thinking)) Once accepted (as true) they are stored unconsciously, at which time responses to them (beliefs) don't require the gate keeper of the mind any more. So they seem to be just automatic responses.
To question them only requires seeing them for what they are, stories. The tricky part here is to SEE them in a raw state, before all of the supporting thoughts arrive. Before diversion takes place.
The thought itself is not questioned. That is real. It's the content that is seen to be just a weaving of illusions into something that seems concrete.
See if you can recognise the incredible ability of mind to create stories. EVERY thought is part of a story. A new story (very occasionally), or an existing story.
Yes, the mind creates stories (if you want to use that word for them), in an attempt to understand the world. The stories are intended to match what's going on in reality, and sometimes they match well, sometimes not at all, and often somewhere inbetween.

I'm not sure where that gets me in terms of questioning the belief that there is a me, though. There is a story that there is a me. It is strongly believed and felt to be true. There is no reason to believe it to be true. Intellectually, I agree that it's not true. Now what?

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:58 am

The stories are intended to match what's going on in reality, and sometimes they match well, sometimes not at all, and often somewhere inbetween.
The story of the self "matches not at all", agreed ?
There is a story that there is a me. It is strongly believed and felt to be true.
The whole thing hinges on this. Just notice how it works. Notice the process. Questioning the belief, doesn't mean denying it. As you notice the story playing out, it will become really obvious How it doesn't match reality.
Now what?
Do the above, report tomorrow.
Do you meditate ?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:56 pm

The stories are intended to match what's going on in reality, and sometimes they match well, sometimes not at all, and often somewhere inbetween.
The story of the self "matches not at all", agreed ?
I don't know. Probably it doesn't.
There is a story that there is a me. It is strongly believed and felt to be true.
The whole thing hinges on this. Just notice how it works. Notice the process. Questioning the belief, doesn't mean denying it. As you notice the story playing out, it will become really obvious How it doesn't match reality.
Now what?
Do the above, report tomorrow.
Do you meditate ?
I don't undertand what you're asking me to do here. The belief that there is a me is in the background, unless I'm thinking about it. There isn't a process. Probably I would be thinking or feeling different in various ways if it wasn't there, but I don't know exactly what these ways are.

I have done various meditation type things in the past, but I don't anymore. They don't seem to lead to anything.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:49 am

I don't understand what you're asking me to do here.
Just notice.
There is a process, by which i mean that thing happen in a sequential way.
You see an object, that triggers a thought, that triggers other thoughts, an emotion arises, then behaviour.
I don't know. Probably it doesn't. (match reality)
Don't take my word for it. Investigate yourself. How ? By noticing the process (as above)
If you're noticing how things work, then you are not swept up in the content of a story. Things that need to happen will still happen but you will see that it is not 'you' doing them. They are just happening. The mind/body organism has it's own intelligence which know how to digest food, avoid obstacles, feel happy (the default state) etc.
It may take practice to get 'good' at noticing, just (without judgement) come back to doing it when realisation arises that you forgot to do it and was swept up again.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:36 am

I don't understand what you're asking me to do here.
Just notice.
There is a process, by which i mean that thing happen in a sequential way.
You see an object, that triggers a thought, that triggers other thoughts, an emotion arises, then behaviour.
I don't know. Probably it doesn't. (match reality)
Don't take my word for it. Investigate yourself. How ? By noticing the process (as above)
If you're noticing how things work, then you are not swept up in the content of a story. Things that need to happen will still happen but you will see that it is not 'you' doing them. They are just happening. The mind/body organism has it's own intelligence which know how to digest food, avoid obstacles, feel happy (the default state) etc.
It may take practice to get 'good' at noticing, just (without judgement) come back to doing it when realisation arises that you forgot to do it and was swept up again.
I have no idea what you're talking about. What process?

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:24 am

The process of relating to reality. The process of story creation. The mental processes that occur.
Let's do an exercise and see if we can get clearer on this.
Go and get a fork from the kitchen drawer.
Now look at it. What do you see ?
If you said (thought) fork, look again. What do you see ?
You see a thing. That thing has a label called fork. (and a very useful label it is too.) It makes it easy to communicate about it.
But what you see is a shiny thing that has a particular shape.
What it is used for has nothing to do with what you see, but when you first see it (before this exercise) you really saw a label that had uses, and you didn't really need to see any details. You might recognise a favorite fork or a not favorite fork, but you didn't actually see the thing.
Now, having done this exercise when you look at this fork there are thoughts arising about it, about the exercise.
Notice those thoughts. Are there feelings (emotions/sensations) that are the result of those thoughts ?
Can you see thoughts that come from earlier thoughts? Can you see a flow of thoughts ?
Can you see how thoughts short circuited the need to See the thing called fork ?
The thing you saw when you looked without the label, that was reality.
What you saw when you first went to the drawer, that was a story.
Moving from the story to reality, that was a process.
Just noticing what you notice, will be a process of moving from story to reality.
What you will notice is how movement from reality to story occurs.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:20 pm

I understand what you're saying, that there is the actual experience of seeing something, and then there are the labels that the mind places on things, and says, "that is a fork" or "that is the wall".
Now, having done this exercise when you look at this fork there are thoughts arising about it, about the exercise.
Notice those thoughts. Are there feelings (emotions/sensations) that are the result of those thoughts ?
Can you see thoughts that come from earlier thoughts? Can you see a flow of thoughts ?
I can't really watch my thoughts in this way. As soon as I start trying to observe my thoughts, whatever I would have been thinking stops, and instead I am thinking about trying to observe. Or my thoughts slow down and stop, or one word starts repeating over and over.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:10 am

my thoughts slow down and stop,
can you choose this one over the repeating word or the thoughts about trying to observe ? or is it random, or do circumstances decide which one occurs ?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:34 pm

my thoughts slow down and stop,
can you choose this one over the repeating word or the thoughts about trying to observe ? or is it random, or do circumstances decide which one occurs ?
No, I can't choose my thoughts. While they seem to be mine, I don't believe that I am controlling them (or anything else). So, as you said, circumstances decide which one occurs.

My idea of me is of a thing which is here, which has thoughts, feelings, a body, experiences, but which doesn't control anything. I am some sort of invisible thing which can't be found and has no effect on anything, but which is believed to be here. While I am having no effect on anything, the belief in me is clearly having an effect on my thoughts and feelings and such.


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