Is it possible to see this?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:47 am

I'm feeling something here... call it intuition... or call it eating too much Korean BBQ and the heartburn from it... but I wanted to ask you.

What is your motivation behind seeing this? What do you really want?

Hope you are having a good weekend.
I find life to be stressful, and I think much of it is because of the effort of trying to look after and protect this self which probably doesn't actually exist. Also, I generally find that life is not good, and there have always been various efforts to try to change things in the hopes that this might change. I don't see a direct connection between seeing no self and life becoming good, though.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:30 am

Alright,

thanks again for your share.
Also, I generally find that life is not good, and there have always been various efforts to try to change things in the hopes that this might change.
I'll share some aspects of my own journey to shed some light on some aspects of this process/Awakening that may help you shift your approach. I had approached almost all aspects of spirituality purely out of dissatisfaction with 'my life'. I both wanted to change my life (by using law of attraction) and be immune to its negativity (by becoming 'enlightened'). I had heard all this shit about accepting the Now as it is, being one with the moment, and all sorts of other ridiculous garbage, yet so much of my seeking was resistance to What-Is. I wanted to change, I wanted my life to change, and I was searching desperately for a way to make it so. I exhausted my search naturally, because no matter what I did I could never avoid 'my life'. In the months leading up, my searching got more attuned and focused on Awakening, which for me was more and more about a simple shift in perception... the clues started dropping in... enlightenment wasn't this superhuman feat, it was actually a simple simple shift that was commonly overlooked. Adyashanti had called it "the big embarrassment" when talking about it during Satsang. All arrows pointed towards this "self", this separate "I"/"me". This seeking self that was struggling against everything with all of its might was what should be investigated! I also learned that there was NO way to STOP seeking, and that the only way it would stop was for it to reach it's goal, which was to spur on Awakening, which was an Awakening from the illusion of the separate self. Naturally, I arrived here at Liberation Unleashed, and made my last desperate efforts.

The process for me took a few weeks, but eventually I did wake up. My guides each imparted on me 2 important lessons that I think are essential in your case as well, and hope that my sharing will help you. The first guide kept getting me to look for this 'self'. I became great at dissecting every single experience and never ever found this fucking "I". I kept reporting to him that I found nothing! He asked me to keep looking, and again, nothing! Then suddenly he said that that's because I was looking for some-thing! He said there is obviously no self, duh!, there is something, but you are not finding it because you are looking for a self that DOESN'T EXIST. He told me to keep it SIMPLER THAN SIMPLE and just see What-Is-Ever-Present and Always. My other guide told me after constant chasing my tale that what was holding me up was my Expectations about the process and my inability to Let Go and trust the process. Both of these instructions came at the same time, and I was left completely frustrated, yet, I knew what I wanted... I wanted to Awaken, and I wanted this above ANYTHING... even above feeling better, making my life better and changing anything. Contemplating these I finally realized that I was projecting my expectations in to this process, and a lot of it was automatic. Because of these expectations I was trying to make it happen, which reinforced the 'self' that kept going in circles. I turned the SEEING towards this self with every ounce of energy that I got. All energy devoted to changing things, life, myself and my expectations were all directed towards this simple SEEing.
I don't see a direct connection between seeing no self and life becoming good, though.
In most cases this shift is so subtle and simple, and in most cases nothing changes upon Awakening. Life is as it was before. What did change was that core constant resistance to What-Is and to Life - that vanishes... with that vanishing, everything else starts to become clear too.

So basically... from our conversations I would advise a few things.

Expectations:
I would advise checking your Expectations and it's relation to this process. It seems that something is driving your search, and as such is constantly making you overlook simplicity and have you go around in circles. I would heavily contemplate any Expectations about this process and drop it, and divert any energy used in those expectations in to the simple process of LOOKING & SEEING, which is already happening, without an actual "i/me". We can address all other issues about anything, especially stressful thoughts and such AFTER Awakening. I would stress the importance of this simple seeing, and the necessity to really focus all energy on this process.

SURRENDER & Let Go:
I would also advise seeing that no real meaningful change to life comes about by resisting it. This was the last thing I wanted to hear by the way. Yet... I was willing to put all hopes of life ever changing or ever being good and just focus on this process. I completely surrendered. I asked myself "what if all my expectations will NEVER EVER be met... what's the worst that could happen? what if it was going to be like this forever and I am totally and utterly helpless? I completely DIED to this... I completely let myself be destroyed and crushed by this.... I realized how much energy I was putting in to Expectations and Resistance... I let it all go... all of it... and diverted that energy used for that, to this process, to this simple seeing. Again... we cannot remove that impulse, that burning inside of us, but we can turn it around on itself and investigate the root. The root is this false assumption, of the separate self.
I find life to be stressful, and I think much of it is because of the effort of trying to look after and protect this self which probably doesn't actually exist.
I would agree. This stress dissolves when the core resistance to What-Is dissolves, and this is only accomplished through seeing through the illusion of the separate self. What happens is... there is that impulse... that seeking... and then the seeker goes about trying to find enlightenment and change their lives... but really.... this simple impulse is seeking the Truth, and to Awaken from the Illusion. Use that impulse, that drive, but use it purely for this process. Use it fully, burn it out completely, focus all of that itch on this process.

So... please take some time to really reflect on what I have pointed out, as it seems like these are getting in your way of simple seeing.

To simply see, xyzzy, just realize the simplicity of each moment that is happening without a separate self.
Seeing is happening, with no seer
Hearing is happening, with no hearer
Feeling is happening, tactile and kinesthetic, with no feeler
Tasting is happening, with no taster
Smelling is happening, with no smeller
Thinking is happening, with no thinker
A dancing Alive kaleidoscope of Experience is constantly happening, with no separate Experiencer, and noone for it to happen to.
Life is moving... including all of the things that have happened, and are happening, including reading this sentence... but without an agent, without a doer, without a separate person or self.
There is a sense of self, an aliveness, but it is not personal... it is just a function of life that enables 'each person' to function in a dynamic and social world... but there is no separation apart from THOUGHTS about it, there is no 'self/i' apart from a THOUGHT about it.

IS IT True?

Look deeply in to it, and when I say that, resist any tendencies to make any mind conclusions... just simply LOOK & SEE. Is there really a separate self? or is there just a seamless Experience of Life?

I really do hope this helps,

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:40 am

Cosmik, thanks for telling me about your story.

I had a realization after reading what you said about, "The first guide kept getting me to look for this 'self'". I looked to see if I could find myself, and I realized that not only am I not anywhere within this experience (as I've mentioned before), I'm not anywhere here at all. That is, I'm not in this body, I'm not in this room, I'm not here anywhere. So this led to realizing that obviously I'm not in the next room, or down the street, or on the moon, or anywhere in the entire physical universe (assuming there is one).

You would think this would lead me to see that there is no me, but that's still not the case. Perhaps I'm outside of this experience and outside of the universe, but experiencing them. Which probably doesn't even make any sense.
Expectations:
I would advise checking your Expectations and it's relation to this process. It seems that something is driving your search, and as such is constantly making you overlook simplicity and have you go around in circles. I would heavily contemplate any Expectations about this process and drop it, and divert any energy used in those expectations in to the simple process of LOOKING & SEEING, which is already happening, without an actual "i/me". We can address all other issues about anything, especially stressful thoughts and such AFTER Awakening. I would stress the importance of this simple seeing, and the necessity to really focus all energy on this process.
I'm not sure how to do this, practically speaking. I don't know that I have any expectations which could be dropped.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:08 am

Hey xy,

That's great. keep looking and deepening that looking. In your day deeply notice the no-me ness as you have already been noticing and really ache to see it through completely.

Can you pinpoint where exactly in your direct experience that you conclude that perhaps there is a you. I know you say that it is perhaps outside of experience, but I want to know what in your experience leads to this conclusion. Ad you know, that conclusion is a thought, and perhaps there is a certain trigger. It seems like you search everywhere, cannot find it, then conclude that you still do not see that there is no me. That leads me to conclude that you either are expecting to see something special or have something change (which is why I brought up expectations as a key factor) OR there is some sensation or aspect of experience that leads to the conclusion you make.

It should be noted that whatever conclusion you come to is still a thought :) when dropping your thought is there a separate entity or a me? And does this thought or conclusion arise to anyone? Is there anyone who thinks this thought?

In terms of expectations, just put aside 20 minutes, open a word document, and pour your heart and soul out to the following question ... "do I have any expectations for Awakening or what it should be/feel/look like? How it will change or affect me or my life?". Write out everything even if it sounds like nonsense. After writing just send kindness to these expectations and firmly drop them. I can tell you and will keep telling you. That they will NOT server you, and I know this from my own experience. Do this whenever you feel stick and whenever the process seems to be giving you mixed and dichotomous results (like it had been so far).

If you believe that the sense of self dissapears. That won't... we all need this to survive... its a basic function of life,and without it we could not function. This sense of self doesn't imply a separate entity though, and maybe what is repeatedly causing you to claim that there is still a me. Look deeply in to this sense of self.... is it proof of a separate entity or self?

I'm confident that you can SEE this. But remmebr. It is up to you.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:41 am

Can you pinpoint where exactly in your direct experience that you conclude that perhaps there is a you. I know you say that it is perhaps outside of experience, but I want to know what in your experience leads to this conclusion. Ad you know, that conclusion is a thought, and perhaps there is a certain trigger. It seems like you search everywhere, cannot find it, then conclude that you still do not see that there is no me. That leads me to conclude that you either are expecting to see something special or have something change (which is why I brought up expectations as a key factor) OR there is some sensation or aspect of experience that leads to the conclusion you make.
There doesn't seem to be anything in my experience that leads me to conclude that there is a me. It's just a strong belief. I don't think I'm expecting to see anything special or have anything immediately change.

The belief is there, and it continues. I see that actions and thoughts happen on their own... fine, now I have a self which controls nothing but is still there. I see that there is no self anywhere in experience... so the self must be outside of experience. Now I see that there is no self anywhere in the world... so it must be outside the world.
In terms of expectations, just put aside 20 minutes, open a word document, and pour your heart and soul out to the following question ... "do I have any expectations for Awakening or what it should be/feel/look like? How it will change or affect me or my life?". Write out everything even if it sounds like nonsense. After writing just send kindness to these expectations and firmly drop them. I can tell you and will keep telling you. That they will NOT server you, and I know this from my own experience. Do this whenever you feel stick and whenever the process seems to be giving you mixed and dichotomous results (like it had been so far).
I did this, but there wasn't all that much to write, just stuff I've mentioned in this thread before. And it wouldn't surprise me much if I did see that there was no self, but then this had no real effect on my life. I have had a number of other such realizations which didn't change anything, so if this one didn't either, it would be par for the course. I don't think that any expectations are keeping me from seeing this, although I could be wrong.
If you believe that the sense of self dissapears. That won't... we all need this to survive... its a basic function of life,and without it we could not function. This sense of self doesn't imply a separate entity though, and maybe what is repeatedly causing you to claim that there is still a me. Look deeply in to this sense of self.... is it proof of a separate entity or self?
I don't know exactly what is meant by sense of self.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:26 pm

There doesn't seem to be anything in my experience that leads me to conclude that there is a me. It's just a strong belief. I don't think I'm expecting to see anything special or have anything immediately change.
I see what you are saying, but is it not clear by now that the belief in a self outside Experience is just a belief? Just another thought?
The belief is there, and it continues.
Beliefs will still float around even after seeing no-self, including beliefs about there still being a me. Regardless... it is just a belief, and just a thought. For instance: You can look at an orange, and believe that even though you can taste an orange, and see an orange, and that regardless of this simple and direct and obvious experience, that it is actually an Apple controlled by a space alien within.

I see that actions and thoughts happen on their own... fine, now I have a self which controls nothing but is still there. I see that there is no self anywhere in experience... so the self must be outside of experience. Now I see that there is no self anywhere in the world... so it must be outside the world.
If it is not in your Experience, then it seems that it only exists in a thought about it. You are making a assumptions and conclusions and are still running around in the realm of thought. Thinking will never lead to an Awakening, as it will constantly have other angles to explore, including the angle that "even though I cannot find it anywhere in my experience, it MUST be outside it". You have to see that a thought is just a thought, regardless of how convincing it may seem. You have said it yourself, and confirmed it many times, from your own thorough investigation... this "I"/"me" cannot be found... that's because it isn't there!
I did this, but there wasn't all that much to write, just stuff I've mentioned in this thread before. And it wouldn't surprise me much if I did see that there was no self, but then this had no real effect on my life. I have had a number of other such realizations which didn't change anything, so if this one didn't either, it would be par for the course. I don't think that any expectations are keeping me from seeing this, although I could be wrong.
If the same stuff that you have written in these threads comes up again when you write about Expectations that means that perhaps you haven't dropped those expectations yet. There is still a lot about life not changing. This isn't about changing your life. This is about seeing that there is no YOU that lives this life... that there is Just Life, flowing, and thoughts about it, which is ALSO Just Life Flowing. There is only this Experience... This Life.

You seem to be really holding on tight to something... some resistance... some insistence... It may help you if you actually just let this go. Just Let Go...

From the simple fact that there is no you to be found anywhere in your direct experience shows me that you are indeed SEEing that there is no self. However, then it seems that you fall back on some belief about a self being there regardless of all the constant evidence to the contrary.

All I can suggest is to keep going out through your day and really letting this simple SEEing and this simple and obvious Noticing sink in... no matter what is going on, what is done, what is happening, what is thought, including beliefs about there being a "me"... can you see that there is no I/me/self to be found?

Including the above simple SEEing, question this belief that you seem to take as Truth:
"I see that there is no self anywhere in experience... so the self must be outside of experience. Now I see that there is no self anywhere in the world... so it must be outside the world."
Is it TRUE??? Are you certain? MUST it be?

Don't be quick to respond to this. Take about 2 days at least to SEE deeply, and do this work. Then get back to us.

Much Love.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:56 pm

I see what you are saying, but is it not clear by now that the belief in a self outside Experience is just a belief? Just another thought?
It's a belief which is experienced as being true. Intellectually, I think it is not true.

All I can suggest is to keep going out through your day and really letting this simple SEEing and this simple and obvious Noticing sink in... no matter what is going on, what is done, what is happening, what is thought, including beliefs about there being a "me"... can you see that there is no I/me/self to be found?
I don't find a self anywhere, but as always, this doesn't mean that there is no self.
Including the above simple SEEing, question this belief that you seem to take as Truth:
"I see that there is no self anywhere in experience... so the self must be outside of experience. Now I see that there is no self anywhere in the world... so it must be outside the world."
Is it TRUE??? Are you certain? MUST it be?

Don't be quick to respond to this. Take about 2 days at least to SEE deeply, and do this work. Then get back to us.

Much Love.
When I said the above, I meant that if there is a self, it must be outside of experience, and outside of the world.

I've spent the last few days continuing to look at this, I have nothing new to report, though. I don't see a self anywhere, I don't see that there is no self. I've tried asking myself the question, "What am I?", lately. I don't get any answer, though. I don't know what I am. I seem to be some sort of invisible thing which can't be found anywhere and which is (somehow) experiencing life. As I don't know anything about this invisible self thing, there would be no way for it to change, so it couldn't be affected by anything, nor does it do anything. The whole idea of it doesn't really make sense, of course.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:40 pm

Hey,

The question "Who am I?" or "What am I?" is all based on the presumption that there is a You and a 'true identity'.

it seems like you are still looking for a self. It isn't there :)

And if you believe that a self exists outside of experience, and outside of the world then:
1) you will never be able to falsify the claim that there is a self
2) you will never see that a belief is just a belief, just a thought, and their content isn't real

Do you see where you are trapped here xy?

:)

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:57 am

Hey,

The question "Who am I?" or "What am I?" is all based on the presumption that there is a You and a 'true identity'.

it seems like you are still looking for a self. It isn't there :)

And if you believe that a self exists outside of experience, and outside of the world then:
1) you will never be able to falsify the claim that there is a self
2) you will never see that a belief is just a belief, just a thought, and their content isn't real

Do you see where you are trapped here xy?

:)
No. I've been trying everything that I or other people could think of to see that there is no self, "what am I?" is just one thing I tried.

I can see that ultimately no beliefs are true, but this doesn't help. It's not any sort of a practical way of looking at things which I could live by. I have lots of beliefs, such as the belief that I need to eat food on a regular basis or the belief that my keys will start my car so that I can drive it, and I can say "No beliefs are true", but I will still live as if they were.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:15 am

Mr xy...
It's not any sort of a practical way of looking at things which I could live by.
we are not here to give you practical tools to live your life. we are here to help guide you to the seeing that there is no separate self.

it seems like you are defending your right to keep this belief about a self that exists outside of experience and the world. we won't fight you on that, go ahead and keep it... if that is what you want, great. then why are we even doing this?

i thought you are here to falsify that assumption, aren't you?

it seems like you are here to defend it! are you?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:44 am

Mr xy...
It's not any sort of a practical way of looking at things which I could live by.
we are not here to give you practical tools to live your life. we are here to help guide you to the seeing that there is no separate self.

it seems like you are defending your right to keep this belief about a self that exists outside of experience and the world. we won't fight you on that, go ahead and keep it... if that is what you want, great. then why are we even doing this?

i thought you are here to falsify that assumption, aren't you?

it seems like you are here to defend it! are you?
No, I'm not defending, just explaining. I was trying to explain why seeing that no beliefs are true doesn't seem to help me to see that there is no self.

I'm not sure how anyone manages to see that there is no self. I don't seem to be able to see it. Some people see this very quickly and easily, for others it drags on forever and they still can't see it. I wonder why.

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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:24 am

No, I'm not defending, just explaining. I was trying to explain why seeing that no beliefs are true doesn't seem to help me to see that there is no self.

I'm not sure how anyone manages to see that there is no self. I don't seem to be able to see it. Some people see this very quickly and easily, for others it drags on forever and they still can't see it. I wonder why.
Yes.. for some it is easy, others not so much. I have no idea why either :)

I'm not giving up on you... but you have to want to falsify this more than anything, and Awaken from this illusion. If that is your main intent above anything else, then we can get through this, somehow.

Let's try to reset our conversation.

/REFRESH/

is there a separate self anywhere, in any form?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:53 am

Let's try to reset our conversation.

/REFRESH/

is there a separate self anywhere, in any form?
Intellectually, I would say no. But, we're not interested in that.

I don't see a separate self anywhere. But I don't see that there isn't one. So the answer is, "I don't know". There's a belief which says there is a separate self, but I don't know whether it's true. I think it's probably not.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:56 am

Okay great,

Again...

this time. Close eyes. Watch thoughts.
Then ask yourself.

Is there a separate self, anywhere, at all?

What comes up. Let the answers arise and notice everything.

Describe in terms of
1) thoughts
2) 5 sensations
from your Direct Experience.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:44 am

Okay great,

Again...

this time. Close eyes. Watch thoughts.
Then ask yourself.

Is there a separate self, anywhere, at all?

What comes up. Let the answers arise and notice everything.

Describe in terms of
1) thoughts
2) 5 sensations
from your Direct Experience.
What comes up is that I don't know about other places besides here. There is no separate self here, but I don't know how to look outside of here to see if there might be a separate self somewhere else.

I can't describe the experience in terms of sensations because I don't remember them. I only remember things that I think about, and I was thinking about the question.


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