Is it possible to see this?

[vinceschubert]

I'm not sure exactly how it works

We are not peddling knowledge here. LOOK and see for yourself. It's your experiencing that is the measure. Just get quiet and watch how thoughts work.
If it's not part of your direct experiencing, then it's a story. If it's ABOUT anything, it's a story. If it's a story it's irrelevant to LOOKING.

I don't believe that there is a me making it happen

Beliefs are previously accepted thoughts ABOUT something. ALL BELIEFS are to be questioned afresh.
In your Experiencing, is there a 'me' anywhere? (not in beliefs)

There's nothing but a feeling that there is an I

Yes, this is an interesting one. It is also part of the illusion. Watch this video, looking for the part where using 3d goggles the researcher is induced to 'feel' that his self is behind his body. Then you will see why you 'feel' that there is a self and how that feeling is produced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E
There is lot's of other interesting info on a 'self' there too.

I consider the 2nd belief true and the first belief to be false, but that doesn't seem to make the first one go away.

Beliefs can be handy, as long as there isn't identification with them. When you say "consider", you are just using that word as a substitute for belief (but also saying it is a belief that was arrived at logically, using other thoughts)
Holding two conflicting beliefs is very 'normal'. Paradox is entirely acceptable in reality. (ha, we get ahead of ourselves here)

[xyzzy]

We are not peddling knowledge here. LOOK and see for yourself. It's your experiencing that is the measure. Just get quiet and watch how thoughts work.

As I mentioned before, I'm not sure I can do this. If I try to watch my thoughts, they slow down and stop.

Beliefs are previously accepted thoughts ABOUT something. ALL BELIEFS are to be questioned afresh.
In your Experiencing, is there a 'me' anywhere? (not in beliefs)

No, there is no me in my experience, just in beliefs. There's sort of a feeling or a knowing that there is a me here, which I assume comes from having a belief that there is a me.

[vinceschubert]

If I try to watch my thoughts, they slow down and stop.

This is how they work. They can't Pretend when seen. But as that occurs there will be glimpses of the process we are talking about.

There's sort of a feeling or a knowing that there is a me here,

Investigate this. Is there sensation attached to it. Is there other thoughts born of it ? etc.

which I assume

Don't assume, that is just inviting thoughts to get active and giving them credibility that they don't deserve. Stay with experiencing.

[xyzzy]

There's sort of a feeling or a knowing that there is a me here,

Investigate this. Is there sensation attached to it. Is there other thoughts born of it ? etc.[/quote]

I don't think there are sensations attached to it. The other thoughts that go with it are that there is this me here which is highly important and must be protected and which will continue to exist off into the future, so there has to be planning to look out for it off into the future.

[vinceschubert]

The other thoughts that go with it are that there is this me here which is highly important and must be protected and which will continue to exist off into the future, so there has to be planning to look out for it off into the future.

Ok, that's a good story. Is it true ?

[xyzzy]

The other thoughts that go with it are that there is this me here which is highly important and must be protected and which will continue to exist off into the future, so there has to be planning to look out for it off into the future.

Ok, that's a good story. Is it true ?

Answer 1: No, it's not true. There's nothing here but this experience. That me is an illusion which doesn't really exist.

Answer 2: Yes, it is true. This me is experienced as being real, strongly felt as being real, and any logical conclusions to the contrary are irrelevant.

So which of those answers is the actual truth? Well...

1. Answer 1 is true. There's no evidence of a self anywhere, life is happening without a self. There is a belief in a self which is felt to be real, but isn't.

2. It doesn't matter what the mind says about any of this, I'm still here.

[Eloratea]

Hello Edward,

It doesn't matter what the mind says about any of this, I'm still here.

Could you say in what way or form you are still here?
What this - I am- is? Is it always here? Or there is time when it is not here?

[xyzzy]

Hello Edward,

It doesn't matter what the mind says about any of this, I'm still here.

Could you say in what way or form you are still here?
What this - I am- is? Is it always here? Or there is time when it is not here?

Answer 1: Of course, there isn't actually any me here, or anywhere, and there never was.

Answer 2: I am always here, as long as this body is conscious. I am me, I am that which is here, I am the center of everything. I don't know what I am, really, but I have attributes. I existed in the past, I will continue to exist in the future, I am important but fragile, and must be protected.

[Eloratea]

Are those both answers equally true? No conflict between them?

[xyzzy]

Are those both answers equally true? No conflict between them?

(Hello again, Eloratea!)

One is the logical answer, which only operates when it's being thought about, which is only occasionally. The other is the emotional answer, which operates the rest of the time. Yes, I suppose they are equally true. I'm not sure what you mean about there being conflict between the two answers. The answers are obviously contradictory.

The reason why I'm giving both answers now like this is to try to make things more clear. My usual response would be to just give answer 1, which could confuse everyone, including me, into thinking that I am liberated already.

[Eloratea]

Hi,

I'm not sure what you mean about there being conflict between the two answers. The answers are obviously contradictory.

Yes, contradictory for the mind. But doesn't matter. I meant how it feels for you. Can the life flow effortlessly with both answers.

I would suggest you staying a bit with the answer 2; what is it that is always here? Does it need protection? Does the truth or illusion need protection.
How can you know that something you don't know have attributes?
Examine all this honestly and deeply. Sit with the feelings that arise, feeling fragile or vulnerable, or whatever, but don't just buy into any story of the mind.

[xyzzy]

I would suggest you staying a bit with the answer 2; what is it that is always here? Does it need protection? Does the truth or illusion need protection.
How can you know that something you don't know have attributes?
Examine all this honestly and deeply. Sit with the feelings that arise, feeling fragile or vulnerable, or whatever, but don't just buy into any story of the mind.

I am always here. I am life, or rather I am a piece of life. I need protection, because I can be hurt, scared, overwhelmed, or have various other unpleasant experiences.

I don't know what you mean about the truth or illusion needing protection. Truth or illusion are both mental concepts which don't need anything.

I know that I have attributes because I feel them.

[Eloratea]

You answers are great example of illusion protecting itself.
And even intellectual seeing of no-self is in itself one of the best protections here.

I am always here. I am life, or rather I am a piece of life.

Is the life divided into pieces or it is just a mental concept?

I need protection, because I can be hurt, scared, overwhelmed, or have various other unpleasant experiences.

Some unpleasantness is part oft his kind of life experience with finite and transient body. But most of the sufferer is only due to the mental misconceptions about life; Due to the delusions.

So, truth and illusion are both real. Liberation is not in denying it. Rather in facing it.

I know that I have attributes because I feel them.

Could you describe those feelings? And explain how they are "your" attributes.

[xyzzy]

Is the life divided into pieces or it is just a mental concept?

I am life, and there is other life out there which is not me, so I am just a piece of it.

Could you describe those feelings? And explain how they are "your" attributes.

"Knowing" is actually a better word than feeling. I know that I am in a particular location (inside my head), that I persist over time and will be here tomorrow assuming this body is still here, that I'm important (compared to, for example, the wall or my shoes), and so on. They're my attributes because they're things I know about me.

[Eloratea]

You are not looking, not observing at all.
Your answers come from concept, beliefs and thinking. That's why you sense yourself to be located in the head. But it is just brain working.
Liberation begins with observing.