Is it possible to see this?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:08 pm

There are thoughts about the future, which at this point is just a thought, and there are emotional reactions to it.
Can you See that these emotional reactions immediately become Reality. A Reality based on imagination. Is this how you (think) you control the future ?
Probably thinking about the future is to some extent an attempt to control it.
the future will happen, but not necessarily in a way which will be experienced as acceptable.
Is there any acceptance that, when an unacceptable future becomes now, that it is this way because of 'interference' by the stories you had about it ?
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, but I think you're asking if thinking about the future can lead to some future situation later being experienced as acceptable, when without this thinking about it it would have been experienced as unacceptable. I would say yes, this is definitely possible, as thinking about the future often involves attempted problem solving, so then some future problem can be solved, rendering it not a problem.

I feel trapped by the need to solve future problems, and by being stressed out about the future in general, though.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:06 am

if thinking about the future can lead to some future situation later being experienced as acceptable, when without this thinking about it it would have been experienced as unacceptable.
Can the reverse be equally true ? Can thinking about it lead to unacceptable outcomes and not thinking about it lead to acceptable ones ?

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:08 am

Hey Mr Xy,

I just want to return to your Insight:
have seen another piece of this. I see that there is no center to this experience. That is, there are thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, and so on, but there's not any center around which everything revolves, and certainly no center which is controlling anything.
When you speak about stressful thoughts... who or what does it arise to? As you have clearly seen. Noone. Just thoughts, sensations, feelings.

When you speak about the future... it is only in thought, only a thought. A 'future problem' is just a thought, and solving future problems is just a stream of thoughts. Who or what can solve problems? As you have clearly seen... Noone. Just thought, sensations, experience.
I feel trapped by the need to solve future problems, and by being stressed out about the future in general, though.
As you have clearly seen... there is no "I" to be trapped in any such 'future problems'. As you have clearly seen... there is no You to be stressed out by anything.

It's just a self-referencing loop. Don't run around the loop. You've done that for so long, and probably not just in this thread with us. Look at the center again... forget about anything that is experienced, anything that arises... look at that center again... it is empty. There is no self.

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Eloratea
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby Eloratea » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:53 am

I feel stressed out about the future all the time now, regardless of whether I'm thinking about it or not. I'm not sure what you mean about becoming aware of this mechanism. I'm aware that thoughts about the future are stressing me out. I can't dismiss them, and if I did, I would still feel just as stressed out.
Edward, there is no stress without belief in thoughts! It may go automatically and not consciously noticed, but that is the only source of the stress. This is really Important!
From the perspective of the empty center (which you have already noticed) self-referencing, stressful thoughts don't have much significance.
It is like watching the movie. You may become shortly stressed as your thoughts trigger such state to be felt, but the moment you realize it's just movie, it fades away.

Warm greetings.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:23 am

I haven't posted in a while as I've been extremely busy, and I've been trying to understand what's going on.

I see that there is no self, there is no me, but this hasn't changed anything, as I still experience life as if there were a me. The same stress and worries about the future and all the other attempts to protect this "self" are still there. It feels as if there is a me which persists over time and which can be hurt and which needs to be protected and so on.

Why is it that seeing there is no me doesn't change anything? Is there a way to actually experience life differently because of knowing this, or is this knowledge just something useless as it doesn't resolve any of the problems that come with believing in a self?

The belief in a me is still there, and even though it is seen that this belief is not true, the belief is experienced and felt as being true.

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Empty Mirror
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby Empty Mirror » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:38 am

Hi Xyzzy

I'm going to jump in here with Cosmik. I think that you have your eyes so set on an imagined "destination" of peace and freedom that you're not realizing the peace and freedom that you've always had. Stress and worry can happen in peace and freedom. Everything can happen in peace and freedom.

It's the imaginary prize that's stopping you from noticing that you are already here.
I haven't posted in a while as I've been extremely busy, and I've been trying to understand what's going on.

I see that there is no self, there is no me, but this hasn't changed anything, as I still experience life as if there were a me. The same stress and worries about the future and all the other attempts to protect this "self" are still there. It feels as if there is a me which persists over time and which can be hurt and which needs to be protected and so on.
So what if they are there? Who/what is it that's concerned about them being there? Stress and worry show up, like feeling relaxed and feeling carefree show up. This is not about what is showing up. It's about whether that stress is happening TO a something or a someone.
Why is it that seeing there is no me doesn't change anything? Is there a way to actually experience life differently because of knowing this, or is this knowledge just something useless as it doesn't resolve any of the problems that come with believing in a self?
Well you obviously don't see that there is no "me", or you wouldn't be concerned with "the problems that come with believing in a self". When you see that there REALLY is no "me" you will see that the stress and worry belong to nobody. When they belong to nobody they have no place to "stick".

At the moment the "I" thought is that 'place' that other thoughts can refer to, and the self-referencing is the 'stickiness'. When stuff "sticks" it is perceived as suffering.

You're so busy looking for a tool to fix something that you're not noticing that there REALLY is nothing that needs fixing.

What you're looking for is where you're looking from.

You're so busy looking at the content of thought that you aren't noticing the "show" that thought shows up in.

I am going to make two statements which are absolutely true: There is no "person" here who is aware of ANYTHING - including Edward, and the person that typed this post. The only one that is aware of anything anywhere is that which is aware of this sentence right now.

When you realize that there TRULY is nobody, and no thing, here apart from what you already are, you will realize that there is nothing to fix.

This that you are just is.
The belief in a me is still there, and even though it is seen that this belief is not true, the belief is experienced and felt as being true.
Take a look at what you call "felt as being true". Can you describe the "feeling" that makes it "feel" true? See if that "feeling" exists anywhere else but in thought.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:13 am

Well you obviously don't see that there is no "me", or you wouldn't be concerned with "the problems that come with believing in a self". When you see that there REALLY is no "me" you will see that the stress and worry belong to nobody. When they belong to nobody they have no place to "stick".

At the moment the "I" thought is that 'place' that other thoughts can refer to, and the self-referencing is the 'stickiness'. When stuff "sticks" it is perceived as suffering.

You're so busy looking for a tool to fix something that you're not noticing that there REALLY is nothing that needs fixing.

What you're looking for is where you're looking from.

You're so busy looking at the content of thought that you aren't noticing the "show" that thought shows up in.

I am going to make two statements which are absolutely true: There is no "person" here who is aware of ANYTHING - including Edward, and the person that typed this post. The only one that is aware of anything anywhere is that which is aware of this sentence right now.

When you realize that there TRULY is nobody, and no thing, here apart from what you already are, you will realize that there is nothing to fix.

This that you are just is.
Well, I'm not sure what to do with this. I think that I see that there is no me. How do I figure out whether I really do see that there is no me, or whether I am thinking this incorrectly?

It seems obvious that there isn't any center to this experience, that there isn't any separate thing here which is causing actions and thoughts, or which is having experiences. There is no me. But thoughts and feelings are actions are all based on the idea that there is a me.
The belief in a me is still there, and even though it is seen that this belief is not true, the belief is experienced and felt as being true.
Take a look at what you call "felt as being true". Can you describe the "feeling" that makes it "feel" true? See if that "feeling" exists anywhere else but in thought.
What I mean is that there are various feelings that come from the belief that there is a me. Like stress and anxiety and such due to worry about future events that "I" might be experiencing.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:22 am

Hey Mr Xy,
What I mean is that there are various feelings that come from the belief that there is a me. Like stress and anxiety and such due to worry about future events that "I" might be experiencing.
thoughts can arise, and it is OK.
thoughts about a self, a future, a past, and it is OK.
feelings can arise, and it is OK.
feelings of anxiety, feelings of stress, and it is OK.
Let whichever, do whatever, whenever.
let it crash and burn, let it do it's thing, let it destroy you.

Put all attention in to looking in to your absence.
LOOK DEEPLY at Experience, here and now.

Put all attention in to simply noticing that it is happening TO noone.

with Love.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:41 pm

Hey Mr Xy,
thoughts can arise, and it is OK.
thoughts about a self, a future, a past, and it is OK.
feelings can arise, and it is OK.
feelings of anxiety, feelings of stress, and it is OK.
Let whichever, do whatever, whenever.
let it crash and burn, let it do it's thing, let it destroy you.

Put all attention in to looking in to your absence.
LOOK DEEPLY at Experience, here and now.

Put all attention in to simply noticing that it is happening TO noone.

with Love.
In looking further at this, I realize that I don't feel certain that there is no me. I see that there is no me, but I don't feel certain about it.

Does that mean that I haven't really fully seen yet that there is no me?

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:40 pm

In looking further at this, I realize that I don't feel certain that there is no me. I see that there is no me, but I don't feel certain about it.

Does that mean that I haven't really fully seen yet that there is no me?
Again... you are still attempting to change things... The very act of you trying to change things, whether it be a self, a stressful life, or a feeling of certainty is the VERY thing keeping you bound to this phantom self.

whatever is there, whatever arises, whatever is Experienced,
whether it be THOUGHTS of me/i/self/protection,
whether it be EMOTIONS of stress/anxiety
whether if be FEELINGS of certainty/uncertainty
they can be allowed to arise. they are alright. it is OK.

the work here is to put all energy in to staring at the stark and naked Truth. Make that your 1 pointed focus.

Do those thoughts belong TO anyone? If so where is he?
Do those emotions arise TO anything ? If so what?
Do those feelings arise TO anyone? If so who?

in all that is Experienced? is there EVER an experience-er?

These questions are not meant for an intellectual response, this is for you to LOOK DEEPLY and face this stark always-there-simple Truth.

As you have seen, over and over, there is no center, no self, no You / me. Keep looking in to that. No matter what arises, keep looking in to your absence until it sinks in.

with Love.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:32 pm

Again... you are still attempting to change things... The very act of you trying to change things, whether it be a self, a stressful life, or a feeling of certainty is the VERY thing keeping you bound to this phantom self.
Yeah, I know. I can't stop trying to change things. The attempt to change things is always there, I've tried various things to stop it in the past and I eventually gave up on that.
Do those thoughts belong TO anyone? If so where is he?
Do those emotions arise TO anything ? If so what?
Do those feelings arise TO anyone? If so who?

in all that is Experienced? is there EVER an experience-er?

These questions are not meant for an intellectual response, this is for you to LOOK DEEPLY and face this stark always-there-simple Truth.

As you have seen, over and over, there is no center, no self, no You / me. Keep looking in to that. No matter what arises, keep looking in to your absence until it sinks in.

with Love.
Yeah, I've been asking myself endless variations on these questions for a long time now. I keep doing it, but it doesn't lead to anything.

How is it that other people are able to see this in such a way that it changes their experience?

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:44 pm

Yeah, I know. I can't stop trying to change things. The attempt to change things is always there, I've tried various things to stop it in the past and I eventually gave up on that.
don't try to stop trying to change things either.
Yeah, I've been asking myself endless variations on these questions for a long time now. I keep doing it, but it doesn't lead to anything.

How is it that other people are able to see this in such a way that it changes their experience?
It's not really about asking yourself the question. The question we pose is for you to direct attention in to Direct Experience. You have seen it yourself, there is no center, no experience-er, no actual "I". Keep attention firmly fixed on your absence.

Forget about stopping trying to change things, or stopping trying to stop trying to change things, or about 'others' experiences (it's all in your thoughts, you have no access to anyone else's experiences... as if there were any 'others' anyway).

PUT ALL ATTENTION, Mr Xy, on your absence. ALL ATTENTION on any assumed "I". ALL ATTENTION on any apparent CENTER. If there is anything that you do... do that.... and then put ALL ATTENTION on any 'Edward' that is assumed to be doing that!

ALL ATTENTION ON ABSENCE! KEEP ATTENTION ON assumed "I". KEEP ATTENTION on apparent CENTER. ATTENTION ON "You". ATTENTION ON ABSENCE!

with Love.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:00 am

...and don't give up.
The only ones that don't 'get it' are the ones who quit.
These guides are beyond ego so you can't offend them. If you are experiencing frustration or anger, that's ok. Let it rip. (it can be helpful)
i spent 43 years seeking, so i know about frustration and disappointment, and i have to tell you it is worth all of that to 'be here now'.
C'mon Edward...

love & compassion

vince


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