Is it possible to see this?

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:14 pm

What comes up is that I don't know about other places besides here. There is no separate self here, but don't know how to look outside of here to see if there might be a separate self somewhere else.
What comes up is thoughts and sensations. That's all.

Do you see that? DO the exercise again, right now. Close eyes. Ask yourself "is there a separate self, anywhere, in any form?". What comes up?

what comes up is only EVER thoughts and sensations.
I can't describe the experience in terms of sensations because I don't remember them. I only remember things that I think about, and I was thinking about the question.
Yes. We can see that you know how to think and type out what you think :) You just seem to think that what you think really matters... but of course... it doesn't.

Here is your problem xy...

you are convinced that the reality you THINK is real is somehow real. you are heavily identified with thinking. you literally believe that thinking gives you a way to view the world that is accurate to Reality, but it isn't, why? because your thinking it :) thoughts cannot describe and show you Reality. the most they can do is point to it. thoughts are simply labels. this is where you are trapped. you identify strongly with the thinking process and as such the reality you perceive is based on that process. your thinking process is creating separation. yet your attention remains in the thinking process looking to find a way out when all you need to do is stop look for answer in your thoughts and simply notice that THOUGHTS are only EVER ONLY THOUGHTS. everything that you report to me is just a thought, it's just a story. can you stop telling your story of the person, Mr xy, that "sees that there is no self, but isn't convinced that there isn't a self because it must be outside of experience and the world"? When you tell your stories you really believe them... you really do. We are just trying to tell you that they are all just stories. There is no self. A story can say anything in response to that, but in our simple experience, moment to moment, if we can drop that story, we see that there is no separate self. There is just Life. You are living in your Stories. Let me show you again...

Pay attention to the stream of thoughts now.
Do this again, and you'll see what's happening, crystal clear.
WATCH THOUGHTS:
RIGHT NOW. Ask yourself. "Is there a separate self anywhere in any form"?

Do you see that anything that comes up is just a thought? And anything that you write her is also a thought? That anything you can respond to anything we say is just a story? There are some sensations, and thoughts. That's it.

This process cannot work for you simply because you are identified with the voice in the head. Thoughts come up and you parrot it like it is real... but you really don't see they are just thoughts. I'm not sure why you have such a death grip on thinking. This may be indicative of a more deep seated issue which we may be unable to assist you with here. It is clear that whatever exercise we give you only penetrates a certain amount before thought comes up and you start thinking and swimming in it and telling us about it. You have a blanket of thinking over everything... everything... EVERYTHING. No wonder life is so stressful and you want to change it.

You are a storyteller and you believe your stories.

What would reality be without your thoughts about it? Maybe try to watch your thoughts for a whole day and see how much you are identified with thinking and the thinking process. You have to see that for yourself.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:34 am


Here is your problem xy...

you are convinced that the reality you THINK is real is somehow real. you are heavily identified with thinking. you literally believe that thinking gives you a way to view the world that is accurate to Reality


How is this any different from pretty much everyone else?

It seems unlikely to me that I am more identified with thinking than the average person is. A large portion of humanity is thoroughly convinced that their religious or cultural beliefs are 100% truth cast in stone, but this isn't true for me. I'm willing to proceed with the idea that overidentification with thinking could be the problem here, though.

Pay attention to the stream of thoughts now.
Do this again, and you'll see what's happening, crystal clear.
WATCH THOUGHTS:
RIGHT NOW. Ask yourself. "Is there a separate self anywhere in any form"?

Do you see that anything that comes up is just a thought? And anything that you write her is also a thought? That anything you can respond to anything we say is just a story? There are some sensations, and thoughts. That's it.


I can't really do this. The thing is, I can't watch my thoughts. If I try to do so, the thoughts stop, or else a few words will repeat over and over, like "watching thoughts".

I did the rest of the exercise a number of times, though. Yeah, I see that anything that comes up is a thought. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "story", though.

What would reality be without your thoughts about it? Maybe try to watch your thoughts for a whole day and see how much you are identified with thinking and the thinking process. You have to see that for yourself.


As I said, I can't seem to watch my thoughts. I can think about them, though.

I'm not sure practically speaking what it means to be identified with thinking and the thinking process. As to the idea that thoughts are "just thoughts" and don't say anything about reality, that doesn't seem to be true. Thoughts are a reasonably good predictor of reality. Thoughts tell me that an object which is dropped will fall, or that ice will feel cold or that water will feel wet, or that I will get hungry if I don't eat, and so on and so on. I don't see how it would be possible to function with the idea that they could be disregarded.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:09 pm

I have seen another piece of this. I see that there is no center to this experience. That is, there are thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, and so on, but there's not any center around which everything revolves, and certainly no center which is controlling anything.

But still, when I ask if there's a me, I'm not sure of the answer.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:29 pm

I have seen another piece of this. I see that there is no center to this experience. That is, there are thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, and so on, but there's not any center around which everything revolves, and certainly no center which is controlling anything.
Nice. But now apply that inquiry to this:
But still, when I ask if there's a me, I'm not sure of the answer.
What is asking What?
Is there an ask-er of the question?
Is there an answer-er of the question?
OR
Is one thought just saying "is there a me?", and another thought says "i'm not sure of the answer"?
Does it really matter what thoughts say?

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:51 pm

Is it clear now?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:49 am

Is it clear now?
I didn't post for a few days because I'm trying to figure out what's going on with me. I'm still not entirely sure.

You said something earlier in this thread about looking at my expectations and dropping them. Also, I read in another thread where someone mentioned that he had been assuming that there was no self, and then looking to see if this was true, and that this was getting in his way. I stopped assumimg there was no me and then looked to see if I could see the actual truth of it. Somehow, when I looked at it this way, it quickly became obvious that there is no separate me, that all there is is this experience.

Except, I've thought in the past that I had seen this, and then later realized that I only saw it intellectually. So, now I'm not entirely sure.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:26 pm

Hey,
I didn't post for a few days because I'm trying to figure out what's going on with me. I'm still not entirely sure.
Enjoy the unknown. Is there anything for certain? (don't answer that) Looking for sureness could mean that you are trying to grasp something intellectually, or that you are trying to match some expectation to what is going on, right here, right now. Just notice. Right here. Right now.

What is there to figure out? There is No You :)

What is trying to figure this out?
Is there one thought again saying "I have to figure this out!" and another saying "I'm still not entirely sure"?
You said something earlier in this thread about looking at my expectations and dropping them. Also, I read in another thread where someone mentioned that he had been assuming that there was no self, and then looking to see if this was true, and that this was getting in his way. I stopped assumimg there was no me and then looked to see if I could see the actual truth of it. Somehow, when I looked at it this way, it quickly became obvious that there is no separate me, that all there is is this experience.
Yes... in direct experience, which is what is going on, right here, right now, there is just that experience. it's simple. there might be several thoughts about it, but regardless, it's all just experience. regardless of any thoughts about it, there is never a separate self. there might be a thought about "there must be a separate self", but as you said... "then looked to see if I could see the actual truth of it" <--- that is the essence of your work. that is what this is all it's about. staring right at what is here & now - as if there is EVER anything else :)
Except, I've thought in the past that I had seen this, and then later realized that I only saw it intellectually. So, now I'm not entirely sure.
I understand, but you have to let go of anything about the past that you are holding on to. It is never anything more than a thought that is coloring the experience, here & now. Like you just said in your previous paragraph, "Somehow, when I looked at it this way, it quickly became obvious that there is no separate me, that all there is is this experience."... so Mr XY.. regardless of what you have thought in the past, are thinking now, and will ever ever think about... was there ever a separate self? is there now? will there ever be?

---

When we ask you, is there a separate self, the answer is always there, in plain sight... and it seems like you've finally decided to stare at truth, here & now, directly. your last two responses clearly demonstrate that you have finally been looking directly in to experience. simply. directly. keep doing that.

here is a further pointer.

is YOU/i/me anything more than a thought/label?



- With Love

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:44 am

... so Mr XY.. regardless of what you have thought in the past, are thinking now, and will ever ever think about... was there ever a separate self? is there now? will there ever be?

---

When we ask you, is there a separate self, the answer is always there, in plain sight... and it seems like you've finally decided to stare at truth, here & now, directly. your last two responses clearly demonstrate that you have finally been looking directly in to experience. simply. directly. keep doing that.

here is a further pointer.

is YOU/i/me anything more than a thought/label?



- With Love
There is no separate self, and there never was. Me is just a thought.

This is not in any way liberating, though. I'm highly stressed out by my work situation. The details are not really important, but I suppose the essence of it is that I seem to have to solve all sorts of future problems now, even though this isn't actually possible. I am trapped by the future, so I am not in any way free or liberated.

I'm using the word I, but I could rewrite all of this to not use it. There's just this experience, but this experience has a future, which is considered to be part of it.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:43 pm

I am trapped by the future,
Edward, answer this; Can you grok that "the future" is imagination ? (at this point)
Add to this, you say; " Me is just a thought."
and what we have is thought (me) thinking (trapped thoughts) about a thought (future).
Then, because of habitual, unexamined belief, you have an emotional reaction to this. That emotional response generates more thoughts, "I'm trapped, what am I going to do ?, etc" which generates more emotion.
What is liberating is that on SEEing this process, there is recognition that, not only will the future take care of itself, but the present is quite sufficient without your need to interfere and control it.
Do you SEE the process described above. Can you RECOGNISE the experience ? Do you REALISE the consequences of it ?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:50 am

I am trapped by the future,
Edward, answer this; Can you grok that "the future" is imagination ? (at this point)
Add to this, you say; " Me is just a thought."
and what we have is thought (me) thinking (trapped thoughts) about a thought (future).
Then, because of habitual, unexamined belief, you have an emotional reaction to this. That emotional response generates more thoughts, "I'm trapped, what am I going to do ?, etc" which generates more emotion.
What is liberating is that on SEEing this process, there is recognition that, not only will the future take care of itself, but the present is quite sufficient without your need to interfere and control it.
Do you SEE the process described above. Can you RECOGNISE the experience ? Do you REALISE the consequences of it ?
There are thoughts about the future, which at this point is just a thought, and there are emotional reactions to it. There isn't any recognition that the future will take care of itself, or that the present is sufficient. I mean, the future will happen, but not necessarily in a way which will be experienced as acceptable.

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Eloratea
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby Eloratea » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:33 am

Hi Edward,

just wanting to share this:
http://eloratea.blogspot.com/2012/10/wh ... uture.html


There is a deep meaning behind the word surrender. Try to discover it in your experience.

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cosmiK
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby cosmiK » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:09 am

:)

it's time to let go.

There has never been anyone in control of any situation previously. There isn't now. and there never will be.

There is no past, or future, there is just this, here, right now. sensations, thoughts, a sense of aliveness... Life.

There is no stress, traps, negativity, problems... these are just labels, put on this Experience.

labels are seen for what they are.

there is just this, right here, right now. sensations, thoughts, a sense of aliveness... Experience... Life.

It's okay to let go.

letting go is just happening by itself.

arms wide open... surrender.

surrendering is happening by itself.

take that step, that only you can do yourself... LOOK Deeply,

SEEing happens by itself.

there is no You.

with Love.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:59 pm

There are thoughts about the future, which at this point is just a thought, and there are emotional reactions to it.
Can you See that these emotional reactions immediately become Reality. A Reality based on imagination. Is this how you (think) you control the future ?
the future will happen, but not necessarily in a way which will be experienced as acceptable.
Is there any acceptance that, when an unacceptable future becomes now, that it is this way because of 'interference' by the stories you had about it ?

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:51 pm

Hi Edward,

just wanting to share this:
http://eloratea.blogspot.com/2012/10/wh ... uture.html


There is a deep meaning behind the word surrender. Try to discover it in your experience.
Hi, you wrote:
And if you find yourself in such particular situation with stressful thoughts about some possible future events and if you become aware of this mechanism, reality already changes and experiencing becomes more relaxed and brighter and new thoughts and feelings come up.
Than you need to notice that no thoughts about future experience are true. They can't be true! Future experience can't be experienced now!
So, you can dismiss all bothering thoughts immediately, which means not paying attention and let them pass by.
I feel stressed out about the future all the time now, regardless of whether I'm thinking about it or not. I'm not sure what you mean about becoming aware of this mechanism. I'm aware that thoughts about the future are stressing me out. I can't dismiss them, and if I did, I would still feel just as stressed out.

If there's a way to not be stressed out about the future, I don't know what it is.

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xyzzy
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Re: Is it possible to see this?

Postby xyzzy » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:53 pm

:)

it's time to let go.

There has never been anyone in control of any situation previously. There isn't now. and there never will be.

There is no past, or future, there is just this, here, right now. sensations, thoughts, a sense of aliveness... Life.

There is no stress, traps, negativity, problems... these are just labels, put on this Experience.

labels are seen for what they are.

there is just this, right here, right now. sensations, thoughts, a sense of aliveness... Experience... Life.

It's okay to let go.

letting go is just happening by itself.

arms wide open... surrender.

surrendering is happening by itself.

take that step, that only you can do yourself... LOOK Deeply,

SEEing happens by itself.

there is no You.

with Love.
I don't see that there is no future. There definitely seems to be a future.

Letting go and surrendering are not happening. It would be nice if they were. How would this happen?


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