Let's gooooo

[megacoolname]

Haha yes, and on a conventional level of course this is known. But how is this known? Staying right in direct experience…

It is known through memory of education at school, but that would just be direct experience of memory? Staying with the direct experience of seeing with no memory, there isn't that.

Look at whatever is in front of you. It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?

It's like a windscreen,
There is just what's seen. there is the feeling of being someone, and somehow, this feeling is often confused as being "the one doing" the seeing, but it makes no sense that a feeling could be doing that.

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?

there's just the experience

Again can this be known without a thought of a different experience?

No it can't.

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

I like this metaphor!

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? …Thought?

the more I try to pin down/locate the sense of self, the more I try to objectify it, then it comes in different flavors: sometimes it's like an imaginary film/border around my body, sometime it's like a small ball inside my chest, sometime it's just a vague feeling with no precise location, kinda "floating around".
It does not say or communicate anything, it's just a feeling of believing in a "me". It is often linked with the desire to find/resolve something.

It is made of a mental image (a small ball in my chest or a border delimiting my body), often interlocked with the sensation of it and a vague, wordless thought (synonym of sensation?) of it.

[graceabounds]

There is just what's seen. there is the feeling of being someone, and somehow, this feeling is often confused as being "the one doing" the seeing, but it makes no sense that a feeling could be doing that.

Yes exactly. This is it!

The self isn’t one thing. It is this or that or the other, shifting to try to keep up with looking, all an overlay, not real.

It is often linked with the desire to find/resolve something

What if that “something’s not right” is the self illusion itself? Notice that drive to fix is off in the future, by this you know it isn’t direct experience. It is the seeking energy. It has been exposed here. :)


Keep unpinning the tension or sensation from the thought signifying ‘me’. See all the parts of this illusion. Follow the raw sensations where they go next.

Can you find an owner of any of this?

[megacoolname]

Keep unpinning the tension or sensation from the thought signifying ‘me’. See all the parts of this illusion. Follow the raw sensations where they go next.

Can you find an owner of any of this?

the searching creates a "me"-feeling that is searching, but I can't find a real owner.
there is also a "me" in the hope that this would bring peace and a sensation of unity with the world
sometimes the searching does make the mind blank, almost thoughtless with no effort, for a minute or two, but there's still like a background idea of a me and a feeling of separation

[graceabounds]

there is also a "me" in the hope that this would bring peace and a sensation of unity with the world

This expectation is a thought…

Lie on your back and relax. Have a look at the ceiling.
There is thought to be a distance between that what is thought to be known as ‘body’ and that what is labeled ‘ceiling’.

Close your eyes. Now focus on the space between body and ceiling. Take your time, breathe in and out and simply look. Keep the eyes shut.

What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?

Who is here to be unified?

[megacoolname]

What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?

After closing my eyes and focusing on the distance between my body and the ceiling, it becomes clear that this notion of distance is just a concept/feeling/thought

There is the feeling of the body and couch, this gets labeled as "body" kinda automatically. The ceiling disappear, it can stay in the mind as a memory/idea

Who is here to be unified?

Only some thoughts wishing so, I guess. No one really

[graceabounds]

Hi Mega,

Yes.

There is no “ceiling” in experience.
no “space” overhead or measurable distance.

There is the feeling of the body and couch, this gets labeled as "body" kinda automatically

I notice the lack of reference to ‘my’ body. Is there any evidence that what’s felt is even a “body”?

Can you find that boundary between couch and body? (pretty sure we covered this but just confirming)

Who is here to be unified?

Only some thoughts wishing so, I guess. No one really

Let’s circle back:

I did so while walking on the beach and everything merged and it was obvious that I never existed.

The ceiling disappear, it can stay in the mind as a memory/idea

There never was anyone. Just a thought wishing so. And a thought about merging that disappeared and stayed as a memory/idea.

This, what is, never left. It doesn’t need to be a special state all the time.

Close your eyes. Feel the desk. Or the body on the couch. Is there more than one thing here?

[megacoolname]

There is no “ceiling” in experience.

well, with eyes open I do see it, even if I get rid of the label "ceiling", there is this white surface that is seen, so I don't understand your statement :(

I notice the lack of reference to ‘my’ body. Is there any evidence that what’s felt is even a “body”?

there's what is felt and the labeling "body" over it

I didn't said "my", because I strongly believe that this whole advaita/non-duality/budhism thing is true, but the body is experienced with a "me", although this "me" feels noticeably weakened with all your exercises and talk.

Can you find that boundary between couch and body? (pretty sure we covered this but just confirming)

I can find it as a concept, but if I focus on the raw sensation, it's only one sensation

There never was anyone. Just a thought wishing so. And a thought about merging that disappeared and stayed as a memory/idea.

I guess I'm just impatient/craving for peace :P

Close your eyes. Feel the desk. Or the body on the couch. Is there more than one thing here?

the physical sensation is clearly only one. at the same time there is a "me" feeling in the background. I know it's only a feeling, but it is also clearly here.

[graceabounds]

even if I get rid of the label "ceiling", there is this white surface that is seen, so I don't understand your statement :(

Yes, you do see a visual field of colors, textures, gradients. That is real.

The concept of “ceiling” on the other hand as in something above you, covering a room, distant, up there etc, all of that requires layers of thought. The spatial placement, the distance, and its relationship to “you” is constructed.

Is that more clear?

I strongly believe that this whole advaita/non-duality/budhism thing is true, but the body is experienced with a "me", although this "me" feels noticeably weakened with all your exercises and talk.

what we are after is exploration and seeing of what is true. It isn’t philosophy because it is direct seeing.

at the same time there is a "me" feeling in the background. I know it's only a feeling, but it is also clearly here.

Great, what is it actually made of?

Physically is it still centered in the chest? Or floating around? Climb all the way inside it and narrate from it…

[megacoolname]

Great, what is it actually made of?

Physically is it still centered in the chest? Or floating around? Climb all the way inside it and narrate from it…

It's made of many things, I maybe I should rather say, it appears with many things, for example:
it comes with intentions: "let's focus on the me", this thought feels strongly like a "me"
it comes with hopes: "I'm now clearly focused on this 'me' feeling, I hope something comes out of this" the hope that comes with the clearness of the focus creates another "me" that was previously somewhere else

it comes with not wanted to leave things alone, it comes with analyzing, searching... but what is this "me" coming along with these things? It reminds me of something you wrote here: "What if that “something’s not right” is the self illusion itself?"

I feel like it might be made by this very "searching/need to resolve/something's not right"

During my searching today, eyes closed and lying down, this "me" was not present physically, but just in the mind, tying itself to memories, ambitions etc...

[megacoolname]

Yes, you do see a visual field of colors, textures, gradients. That is real.

The concept of “ceiling” on the other hand as in something above you, covering a room, distant, up there etc, all of that requires layers of thought. The spatial placement, the distance, and its relationship to “you” is constructed.

Is that more clear?

Yes it is clearer :)

[graceabounds]

During my searching today, eyes closed and lying down, this "me" was not present physically, but just in the mind, tying itself to memories, ambitions etc...

Is it ever not in the mind?

Read this again:

It's made of many things, I maybe I should rather say, it appears with many things, for example:
it comes with intentions: "let's focus on the me", this thought feels strongly like a "me"
it comes with hopes: "I'm now clearly focused on this 'me' feeling, I hope something comes out of this" the hope that comes with the clearness of the focus creates another "me" that was previously somewhere else

intention, hope… these are thoughts

What is here that is not a thought?

What is actually here? Now.


When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

[megacoolname]

Is it ever not in the mind?

sometime the mind put it somewhere in the body, but ultimately yes it's still in the mind.

intention, hope… these are thoughts

What is here that is not a thought?

What is actually here? Now.

I don't know how to answer that :(
I'd say that what is actually there are things without their label on it. but ultimately there is the labels too.

When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

there is only a sense of me, that's what I was trying to convey in my previous message :)

[graceabounds]

What is actually here? Now.

I don't know how to answer that :(
I'd say that what is actually there are things without their label on it. but ultimately there is the labels too.

So strip the labels and come back to this exercise today:

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a while.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time
Then, stop watching the objects as labeled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

And then this…
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go

[megacoolname]

What is actually here? Now.

I don't know how to answer that :(
I'd say that what is actually there are things without their label on it. but ultimately there is the labels too.

So strip the labels and come back to this exercise today:

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a while.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time
Then, stop watching the objects as labeled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

And then this…
Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go

I've been doing that as much as I could remember to do it, and then it becomes much more obvious how the "I" or "me" is an idea from the mind, made of thoughts.

for example, if there's the thought "I'm closing this door", by labeling it clearly as a thought, it's evident that there is no real "I" behind that.
There's a sense of "I" in the labeling process, but then labeling is also just thoughts

[graceabounds]

Yes, accurate seeing here.

Once the thoughts of I that has been masquerading as a sense of I are set aside, is this sense of I alive/found in any physical way, as an actual sensation or mixture of senses?