Seeing what truly is, seeing the seer

[this2passes]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is constructed, it is a label that is attached after the fact. The mind has sensations/thoughts arising and passing all the time, without the need for a self. On reflection of "what was I doing" tag of the self is reconstructed to give a stream of thoughts/doings. A subtler self also arises when seeing things to identify a relationship/

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help to get into a wider sense of no-self. I am currently able to get into a feeling of awareness and no-thought, and I want to widen this by observing what's happening from different perspectives.
I understand the power of a guide who can see where I am and point out what I'm missing. I get the perspective that I just need to drop everything, but I am not sure if that's everything, and whether the dropping worked.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
The last guided conv I had, helped me work with inside and outside. I always thought that inside had to expand to include the outside. But in this conversation I realized that outside could expand to include the inside. Now my center is much smaller, and can't be found, and everything is outside, both body sensations, thoughts, and the outside world.
What I seek is both direction and surrender. I can read text instructions all day long, but when it is guided, I find that surrendering to the instructions and doing it becomes more impactful.
I would also like course corrections, I have a tendency to overthink and complicate. I need help to simplify and do it and share.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Was on 3 retreats, vipassana/twim. Sitting about 1hr daily for one year. Mostly Metta/TWIM/Jhana, and sometimes Michael Taft's guided meditations esp Shamatha/Metta/Tonglen, have done some integration work (IFS, Core Transformation, etc).

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Maylson]

Hi, how are you? I'm May, and I can be your guide. 😊

What name would you like to go by?

"I am looking for help to get into a wider sense of no-self. I am currently able to get into a feeling of awareness and no-thought, and I want to widen this by observing what's happening from different perspectives.
I understand the power of a guide who can see where I am and point out what I'm missing. I get the perspective that I just need to drop everything, but I am not sure if that's everything, and whether the dropping worked."

What exactly do you mean by a ‘wider sense of no-self’? Right now, without trying to reach a new state or think of an answer, is there any separation happening? If so, how? Can you describe it from direct experience?

The idea of a ‘you’ that can expand or attain something, does that exist right now, or is it just a thought appearing?

How do thoughts show up, do they appear to someone, or do they just appear?

[this2passes]

Hi May, good to connect

You can call me KP

Right now I am sitting in a park. When I look, everything I see, sounds I hear, sensations in my stomach are all in the same experience. There is no separation between these.

By a wider sense of no-self I mean when I'm annoyed, or upset, there is a strong identification with myself. I would like that to be less and less.

On the idea of expanding
I remember thoughts of wanting to.
But if I stop and search in direct experience, then there is no feeling or sense of wanting to expand or a "me" that wants to expand. Everything is fine as I experience and stay in awareness.
When I stop and drop into thought, then there is a sense of having wanted to.


Thoughts arise like sounds, from nowhere and then they go away to nowhere. Many thoughts just flit by. Some keep churning in a loop for longer.

[Maylson]

Hey!

By a wider sense of no-self I mean when I’m annoyed, or upset, there is a strong identification with myself. I would like that to be less and less

Look closely: does the upset itself create a sense of 'me,' or does a thought claim it afterward, calling it 'my' upset? Without labeling it, what is it, really?

And this desire for this identification to happen ‘less and less...’ who wants that? Is there someone controlling how identification appears and disappears, or is that just another thought saying, ‘this should be different’?

You also mentioned that some thoughts just pass, while others seem to loop. But are they really looping, or is there simply a new thought appearing now that says ‘this thought has been looping’? Can you find an actual loop in direct experience, or just single thoughts arising one at a time?"


Enjoy the park, kP 😉

[this2passes]

Look closely: does the upset itself create a sense of 'me,' or does a thought claim it afterward, calling it 'my' upset? Without labeling it, what is it, really?

When something upsetting happened, there were various thoughts that were coming up. Some were taking on older stories and adding to them. Some were extrapolating what happened. However being in the body, staying with the experience, most of these thoughts just flitted past. After what felt like a minute or two, there was a reframing, and I could see how reacting to those thoughts would have created more upset than the actual event, which could be seen as being totally harmless.

And this desire for this identification to happen ‘less and less...’ who wants that? Is there someone controlling how identification appears and disappears, or is that just another thought saying, ‘this should be different’?

memories of times when identification didn't happen seem to be happier than memories of times when the identificaiton and contraction were very strong. so there is a thought about these memories which says remember those times, wouldn't it be good if we have more of those?

You also mentioned that some thoughts just pass, while others seem to loop. But are they really looping, or is there simply a new thought appearing now that says ‘this thought has been looping’? Can you find an actual loop in direct experience, or just single thoughts arising one at a time?"

It is single thoughts arising one at a time, and at some point, the thought stream jumps somewhere else. and sometimes a similar thought starts again. For example, "oh that's annoying -> she always does that -> she hates me, that's why she does it to annoy me -> ugh that makes me feel so stupid -> ugh I'm angry about this -> .... -> why does she always do that -> because she hates me -> ... -> I'm so angry -> I'll tell her she's annoying -> ... "

Enjoy the park, kP 😉

kids, wife, and I had great fun! Thanks!

[Maylson]

Hi KP, how is existence? How's everything? 😊

“When something upsetting happened, there were various thoughts that were coming up. Some were taking on older stories and adding to them. Some were extrapolating what happened. However being in the body, staying with the experience, most of these thoughts just flitted past. After what felt like a minute or two, there was a reframing, and I could see how reacting to those thoughts would have created more upset than the actual event, which could be seen as being totally harmless.”

This is a clear description of how this mental mechanism happens. And indeed, the more the mind engages in a narrative, the stronger its sense of continuity becomes.

Do you notice that identification happens without control, and only afterward does this thought arise, narrating and trying to organize the experience?

But before this thought arises, is there any real problem?

“memories of times when identification didn't happen seem to be happier than memories of times when the identificaiton and contraction were very strong. so there is a thought about these memories which says remember those times, wouldn't it be good if we have more of those?”

So, memory of moments without identification arises, followed by a thought saying those moments were better, and another thought suggesting it would be good to have more of that. But even that desire is just another thought appearing now.

Without it, would there still be someone wanting things to be different?

Experience -whether identification or not- simply happens. Is there an "I" deciding this, or just thoughts arising and labeling what’s better or worse?

Now, without relying on memory, where is this "I" that wants more moments without identification?

And the contraction? The moment it arises, it’s already gone. Who is holding it as something real?

When you observe this sensation directly, is there anything beyond a passing experience, or just a thought saying "This is contraction and it's bad"?

“It is single thoughts arising one at a time, and at some point, the thought stream jumps somewhere else. and sometimes a similar thought starts again. For example, "oh that's annoying -> she always does that -> she hates me, that's why she does it to annoy me -> ugh that makes me feel so stupid -> ugh I'm angry about this -> .... -> why does she always do that -> because she hates me -> ... -> I'm so angry -> I'll tell her she's annoying -> ... "

Great! Now, notice how, at some point, a similar thought comes back. But is it really the same thought, or just another thought with a similar flavor, telling a similar story?

When you look closely, can you find an actual "loop" happening, or is it just a continuous flow of new thoughts being labeled as a loop?

And when you observe the thought, can you find a clear "me" getting caught in it, or is it just a thought appearing by itself?

“kids, wife, and I had great fun! Thanks!”

That's beautiful! Have a nice day!

[this2passes]

Hi May, thank you for the questions!

Do you notice that identification happens without control, and only afterward does this thought arise, narrating and trying to organize the experience?

But before this thought arises, is there any real problem?

No. there was an emotion arising. that emotion could have been simply observed and it would not have lead to any problem. seeing that emotion as a problem, not allowing it to pass away, and starting to think about what that action meant, what the emotion meant, lead to the problem.

Without it, would there still be someone wanting things to be different?

Experience -whether identification or not- simply happens. Is there an "I" deciding this, or just thoughts arising and labeling what’s better or worse?

Thoughts are arising and passing with no "I" deciding to do anything. Identification also happens and later there is a narrative around it. Just the I arising is also not something bad.

Now, without relying on memory, where is this "I" that wants more moments without identification?

And the contraction? The moment it arises, it’s already gone. Who is holding it as something real?

When you observe this sensation directly, is there anything beyond a passing experience, or just a thought saying "This is contraction and it's bad"?

Yes. when the contraction arises in thought, it already changes, and another thought might take its place. Only when a thought arises saying this is a contraction and it's bad there is a sense of I should fight it. Otherwise can just experience the contraction and then it goes away.

There is no I in the current moment that wants anything diffrent from what is now.

Great! Now, notice how, at some point, a similar thought comes back. But is it really the same thought, or just another thought with a similar flavor, telling a similar story?

When you look closely, can you find an actual "loop" happening, or is it just a continuous flow of new thoughts being labeled as a loop?

And when you observe the thought, can you find a clear "me" getting caught in it, or is it just a thought appearing by itself?

It's a different thought with a similar flavor. There is no actual loop, just a constant flow of new thoughts being labeled as a loop. Which means that it can be interrupted at any time.

There is no "me" getting caught because it's just thought after thought arising and changing. During each thought there is no "me" there. Later there is a thought that "oh poor me, stuck in a loop of repeating thoughts"...

[Maylson]

Hey! :)

It seems you're seeing how thoughts come and go without an actual "I" getting caught in them.
Now, let's take this deeper.

Is there a belief or a story that still seems to arise when a thought appears, something like "I shouldn’t feel this way" or "this shouldn’t be happening"? Notice if any of these beliefs show up, even if they feel subtle.

What if we drop the idea that anything needs to be different, even the presence of thoughts or emotions? Can you experience them as they are, without needing to label them as good or bad, or as something to fix?

Right here, in this moment, without referencing any past experience or future outcome, what is left? Is there anything that still holds onto a sense of "me," or is everything simply appearing and disappearing, as it is?

[this2passes]

Is there a belief or a story that still seems to arise when a thought appears, something like "I shouldn’t feel this way" or "this shouldn’t be happening"? Notice if any of these beliefs show up, even if they feel subtle.

What if we drop the idea that anything needs to be different, even the presence of thoughts or emotions? Can you experience them as they are, without needing to label them as good or bad, or as something to fix?

Yes, when some thoughts arise, sometimes another thought arises soon after, "Why am I thinking this way" or "I don't want to feel this way, I should do something so I don't feel this way". And these are separate thoughts, not the same! And I can just let these thoughts go by just as I let other thoughts go by, without adding new thoughts of "Oh I don't want to be stuck with these thoughts about thoughts", etc.

Right here, in this moment, without referencing any past experience or future outcome, what is left? Is there anything that still holds onto a sense of "me," or is everything simply appearing and disappearing, as it is?

When I let every thought and emotion come and go, then there is no longer a sense of a "me" there. It was the holding on that created a sense of "me".When I let go of judging and labeling the thoughts as they arise, there was a sense of warmth and bliss which arose filling me from torso to head. Any thoughts which arose were simply looked at and let go. feelings of anxiety or fear were also seen and let go. There is a quiet unspoken confidence that Everythign could be dealt with in its own time - not sure where that is coming from. (I have adhd, so usually thought after thought of should do this, should have already done this keep piling on)


there is little sense of me.

Side-note: I am doing non dual recorded guided meditations by michael taft as well, 2-3 times a week. And lite twim jhana meditations as well. Mostly 1hr a day, 5-6 days a week

[Maylson]

“Yes, when some thoughts arise, sometimes another thought arises soon after, “Why am I thinking this way” or “I don’t want to feel this way, I should do something so I don’t feel this way”. And these are separate thoughts, not the same! And I can just let these thoughts go by just as I let other thoughts go by, without adding new thoughts of “Oh I don’t want to be stuck with these thoughts about thoughts”, etc.”

You see? This sense of “me” was created by holding on and judging experiences. Now, let’s look a little deeper...

Try this: make a fist and squeeze it tightly. That tension feels solid, like something real. But the moment you relax your hand, where did the fist go? Was it ever a separate thing, or just the result of contraction? In the same way, the sense of “me” seems tangible when there’s grasping, holding onto thoughts, emotions, or control. But when that tension eases, what remains? Was there ever a separate “me” at all, or just the habit of contraction creating the illusion of one?

When I let every thought and emotion come and go, then there is no longer a sense of a “me” there. It was the holding on that created a sense of “me”.When I let go of judging and labeling the thoughts as they arise, there was a sense of warmth and bliss which arose filling me from torso to head. Any thoughts which arose were simply looked at and let go. Feelings of anxiety or fear were also seen and let go. There is a quiet unspoken confidence that Everythign could be dealt with in its own time – not sure where that is coming from. (I have adhd, so usually thought after thought of should do this, should have already done this keep piling on)


There is little sense of me.

Now, notice something subtle: Even in this space of ease and openness, does any part of experience still feel like ‘mine’? That warmth, that quiet confidence, do they belong to anyone? Or are they just appearing, like everything else, without an owner, without control?

And this feeling that there is now “little sense of me,” what exactly still seems to be “me” in this moment? Is it a sensation in the body? A thought about experience? Something that still feels like a center? Or, when looking directly, is everything simply happening, with no one behind it?

There’s no right or wrong answer here, just a gentle curiosity. Without trying to hold onto or push away anything, just here and now, what remains, before any thought tries to name it?

[this2passes]

Just the feeling of contraction going on and on and on becomes a feeling that seems to be the illusion of the sense of self. When I loosen the contraction then there is nothing left.

I was on a long drive today, and for sometime everything inside felt completely impersonal. There were feelings, sensations, thoughts, all were impersonal. Ie they were not attached to a sense of a me.

Only a wide open awareness, awareness of sensations within the body, and from outside the body. Now when I look within, there is still that impersonal nature there.

[Maylson]

Beautiful! Now, as everything feels impersonal, lets look even closer...

This impersonal nature youve mentioned, does it need an observer to confirm it? If there were no reference point, no one to "notice" that everything is impersonal, would anything actually change? Or is experience simply unfolding, without needing to be claimed?

About contraction, when it arises again (if it does), is there truly "someone" contracting, or is it just another movement appearing, like a wave forming and dissolving in the ocean?

Now, there’s a wide open awareness... sensations appear, some labeled "inside," others "outside..." But does awareness itself have an inside or outside? Or is this division just another subtle thought arising? How do you experience this "inside" and "outside"?

Once again, without relying on any description, without settling on any conclusion, just here, before any thought interprets this moment, what is truly here? And who is this "one" observing it?

[this2passes]

Sorry was out of town. Practiced when I could, but wasn't able to reply.

Or is experience simply unfolding, without needing to be claimed?

Experience is simply unfolding. There is no need to label either personal/impersonal or inside/outside.

Or is this division just another subtle thought arising? How do you experience this "inside" and "outside"?

Once again, without relying on any description, without settling on any conclusion, just here, before any thought interprets this moment, what is truly here? And who is this "one" observing it?

There is no "one" observing. It is just happening one after the other in awareness. Before any interpretation of the moment, there is just awareness and sensations coming in.

[Maylson]

There is no "one" observing. It is just happening one after the other in awareness. Before any interpretation of the moment, there is just awareness and sensations coming in.

Yes!! No "one" observing... just this, unfolding. And these sensations, thoughts, movements… are they separate from awareness, or are they awareness itself?

If you don’t name it, is there any gap between 'what is' and the knowing of it?"

[this2passes]

Yes!! No "one" observing... just this, unfolding. And these sensations, thoughts, movements… are they separate from awareness, or are they awareness itself?

If you don’t name it, is there any gap between 'what is' and the knowing of it?"

there is no separation between awareness and the observations. if there is a perception it is just there. there is awareness and perception they are not separable.

there are thoughts about awareness being separate, but they are thoughts about the awareness, not the experience of awareness itself.

Is there something to try in this state? there is a thought that I am not fully convinced they're the same thing - awareness and thought/sensations/etc.