Journey Within

[Wintonia]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is no true self as a seperate entity and that life as we know it is an illusion that has been created by our minds. For the longest time I have felt that there is more to this life and no matter what I achieve or acquire, that feeling never goes away. I cannot help but feel that the feeling is a longing for realisation.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to see passed the illusion. I have grown weary of feeling incomplete and attempting to do this on my own has not been very helpful. Put simply, I wish to be liberated. To see and finally piece together that which I know for certain is missing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would expect a patient and empathetic way of guiding me towards this realisation. It has just been really difficult searching onn my own and I would appreciate guidance from someone who has been through the process already. The loneliness and frustration tends to get the better of me some days and I just wish I could speak or consult someone who truly understands.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Initially I did not believe much in anything. However, last year something happened to me that made me realise there was more to the life I perceived. In my anguish and struggle I came to understand the concept of the illusion and embarked on a personal journey using YouTube videos as a guide and reference point. However, my understanding continues to remain intellectual and not practical, which has led me to seek actual guidance.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Canfora]

Hi Wintonia, it's been a long time since your post. Are you still looking for a guide?

[Wintonia]

Hi Canfora. Thank you for your response. Yes, it has indeed been a while since I posted. I still do not have a guide assigned and could definitely use one.

[Canfora]

Hi Wintonia,

Thank you for your reply. I can be your guide if you are okay with that.

A guide is someone that points to what is here now, as it is. Therefore, the idea is to help you see that in what is here there is no self.

Doing this direct inquiry into what we call reality is something that seems simple, but can be difficult to achieve. It takes some practice. And probably a letting go of fears and expectations. It involves putting aside expectations that something will happen, that something will change, that the heavens will light up and the trumpets of enlightenment will sound. First you see the illusion and after that seeing you see what changes.

I have read your introduction again and I get the idea that you believe that there has to be more than this, more than what exists in this moment now. This belief can make you get stuck in the inquiry, because you think that the right answers have to be somewhere beyond what is here now. So, for the time being, our goal is to make you see what is here as it is, instead of how you think it is, our should be, or will be. Nothing wrong with thinking, expecting or imagining, but this kind of thinking isn't going to be helpfull to check if a self is real or not.

I understand that there is no true self as a seperate entity

Yes. The inexistance of a true self as a separate entity is a fact. It can be verified. If there is a real self it must be present here now. It must be something that can be seen, smelled, touched, tasted. It can't be something imaginary, that only seems to be present when you think about it. So, this is about looking for a self, to see there isn't such a thing.

OMG, I hope I don't scare you with all this rambling!

So have a look. See what is here as it is. If I ask you to look for a self among what is present - using the senses, using the eyes - can you find/see something that is a real self?

Looking forward to your reply.

Take care,
C

[Wintonia]

Hi C,

My apologies for the late response. I certainly hope you are well.

Thank you for offering to be my Guide. I was starting to feel like the Gate had locked me out lol.

And don't worry about sounding like you're rambling. It is perfect because at least I know I wont miss out on any relevant description. :). So we can get started?

You were right about me possibly being stuck in the inquiry because I 'expect there to be more'. I guess this expectation comes from a life changing experience I had two years ago which shattered a lot of my strongly held views and left me with several questions. I will however empty my mind of any pre-existing expectation and allow this experience to be as straightforward as possible.

So do I see a self? My immediate response is, what is a self? I see a body, I see limbs and fingers typing across this keyboard. I experience thoughts, logic, memories, fear, excitement, a whole host of emotions. Is all of this put together what amounts to a self? I do not know. Is there a 'me' separate from my body and thoughts that experiences physical sensation and these thoughts? I try to look for this separate entity but I do not see it. When I drop the body, when I shut out the thoughts...I feel nothing else that is there...just a quietness. Just an awareness of life I guess.

[Canfora]

Hi Wintonia,

So we can get started?

Yes! Let's do this!

You were right about me possibly being stuck in the inquiry because I 'expect there to be more'. I guess this expectation comes from a life changing experience I had two years ago which shattered a lot of my strongly held views and left me with several questions. I will however empty my mind of any pre-existing expectation and allow this experience to be as straightforward as possible.

Yes. Experiences are just experiences. They came, they go. This seeing is always available, regardless of the quality of the experience you're having.

So do I see a self? My immediate response is, what is a self? I see a body, I see limbs and fingers typing across this keyboard. I experience thoughts, logic, memories, fear, excitement, a whole host of emotions. Is all of this put together what amounts to a self? I do not know. Is there a 'me' separate from my body and thoughts that experiences physical sensation and these thoughts? I try to look for this separate entity but I do not see it. When I drop the body, when I shut out the thoughts...I feel nothing else that is there...just a quietness. Just an awareness of life I guess.

Well done! Notice how I've asked you to look for something, which you did, and then bang! there you went, thinking about it. That's very natural and to be expected, because we learn that to know something we need to think about it until we reach a logical conclusion.

The thing is that if seeing this illusion could be done by thinking about it, you would already get it. It's the thinking that is creating the illusion and it will be doing that even after you see there is no self. You can't use the tool that is creating the glitch in perception to see the glitch. When I say look, that is 100% what I mean. Look and see what is here, as it is. You already know how to do that, you just don't realize that yet.

I see a body, I see limbs and fingers typing across this keyboard. I experience thoughts, logic, memories, fear, excitement, a whole host of emotions.

This is a description of what you can see going on now.

Is all of this put together what amounts to a self? I do not know.

These are thoughts. Can you see the difference?

When I suggest you look for a self, what I would like you to do is to look for a self as you would do if you were trying to find the misplaced keys of your house. You could think about the last place you saw them, but to find them you would have to look, with the eyes, everywhere, until you found them. Looking for a self is similar. Where is this thing that I think is a self? If a though is "there it is" have a look. Is it really a self? Can the thinking create a self that is real or is the thinking creating an illusion?

So, have a look again, and see what is here, as it is. If possible have fun looking for a self. Can you find such a thing?

Can you see a self?

Take care,
C

[Wintonia]

Looking for a self is similar. Where is this thing that I think is a self? If a though is "there it is" have a look. Is it really a self? Can the thinking create a self that is real or is the thinking creating an illusion?

So when I have a look, as in really look, this is what I see. I see a body..a living body with limbs and all these apendages, it grows old and ages all on its own. Nothing appears to control it. Is that a self I ask, and i have to say, no, because the self cannot be the body. Then I focus on this thing that is telling me to look. Is that a self? But its more of a thought to look than anything else. In the end all I end up seeing is a constant silence through which these thoughts come and go...but this cannot be a self. So no...I cannot find it anywhere. But then, a question arises, what is a self? What exactly is this thing that I am looking for?

[Canfora]

Thank you for looking Wintonia! Yep, well done. You have looked and didn't found a thing that could be a real self.

But then, a question arises, what is a self? What exactly is this thing that I am looking for?

Those are good questions. How would you answer them?

[Wintonia]

lol, I didn't expect this to be thrown back to me but I guess a self would be a separate entity, i.e my self, distinguishable from other 'selves' or people/living entities. This of course is an academic, logic based response. But the more I consider it...hold on, if I cannot find a self...within myself, the same would apply to other entities right? Making us all one entity....again, academic understanding.

[Canfora]

Isn't it funny how we think we are something but when asked we don't even know what that something would be?

if I cannot find a self...within myself, the same would apply to other entities right?

Yes but don't get distracted by thinking about others and come back to checking if this idea that has pop up, that there is a self within yourself, is accurate.

Let's do some exploration around this idea of being bound within yourself. Don't worry with finding the right answers. Have a look and describe as best you can what you SEE.

1. Allow yourself to be open to this moment and look around. Notice own effortless seeing, hearing, smelling and touching are.

2. Examine your experience looking for borders. With the help of vision, hearing, smelling and touch, try to verify whether you are contained in any way. Notice that if you are something inside the skin, you should be able to verify the "walls" of that container. Do you perceive a wall or borders of a container of experience - do you perceive something that binds you? Does sight ends at some border or edge? Do the other senses end at some border or edge? Is there something that contains them or stands in their way? Can you find a structure where your experience ends?

3. Do you perceive or experience an "inside"? A place where you are contained? Do you directly experience that you are inside something?

4. Do you perceive an "outside"? This would mean you could leave the inside and go to the outside - like the experience of entering and exiting a car, for example. Do you experience the walls/borders from a outside?

5. Do you experience yourself as a thing, with defined borders that define you?

6. Did you found a real self while exploring the idea of borders?

Let me know how this goes.

[Wintonia]

Thanks C. This seems like a really interesting activity...I'll get into it and give you an account of my experience. I really want to immerse myself in this exercise.

[Wintonia]

Hi C,

Thank you for your patience. I have spent some time doing this activity and this is what I have seen:

As far as the senses go, my feeling is not restricted in any manner, I feel anything that my skin is exposed to. I feel the air brushing up against it, I feel the temperature rise and fall, I feel the sensation of another persons touch upon my skin, no control over this sensation. I cannot deny it, nor can I resist it...it happens all on its own and appears to be in constant interaction with something else, be it the elements or other objects. Do I feel contained in my skin, or rather do I SEE containment? Only to the extent that I see my body covered in the said skin.

Regarding my sight and other senses you asked

Does sight ends at some border or edge? Do the other senses end at some border or edge?

.

I have to say my vision has no boundaries. I can see for as far as I can make out images with my eyes. There is no border constraining my sight, just like there is no border constraining my smell or my hearing. For as long there is stimuli, I will receive and experience it. I cannot mark out or block out stimuli voluntarily, as would be the case with closing or or opening the door to a room.

Which leads to the next point, do I experience an inside and an outside. Do I SEE this? I have looked and what I have seen is just exactly what I see, no inside, no outside, just what is there. I cannot withdraw or step out to interact with my environment. What I see is a permanent connection to this environment. Through all my senses I see that I am always connected to something. I cannot help but interact with something. Through the air I breathe, the water I drink, the earth I walk on, the sound of wind blowing. All constantly present and interacting, so no...no outside or inside...just permanence.

Did you found a real self while exploring the idea of borders

Again, all I see that lies distinct from everything else is my body and my mind. Distinct in the sense that I have control over its movement and over my thoughts. But exploring the concept of borders as I did above makes me see that this control is limited....narrow because it is all still connected to a borderless system. So I cannot see a true self, existing to the exclusion of everything else.

[Canfora]

Hi Wintonia. Well done.

Thank you for your patience.

You are welcome. I hope you aren't feeling guilty because you don't get it yet. We are just begining and I'm aware its very likely we are going to talk with each other for a long time, if that is what it's needed for you to be 100% sure that a separate self is an illusion. Don't worry about that, we have all the time in the world. I also benefit from guiding, it's something that is fun to do, chalenging and that makes me look. Practice is also something that I require, to come back to a seeing state.

You wrote a mix of describing what you were perceiving and thoughts (questions and conclusions) about what you were perceiving and it seems to me you've got what I was pointing to: no inside/outside, no borders between a self and anything else and no contained self can be found when using the senses to check if there is such a thing. If you have doubts about this let me know, so that we can look to this again.

all I see that lies distinct from everything else is my body and my mind.

Other than thoughts about body and mind being distinct, how do you know this is true?

Have a look.

Can you see mind? Is the concept mind connected with something that is real?

How do you know the body is "my body"? Can you see something that owns the body?

Distinct in the sense that I have control over its movement

How do you know the above thought is true? What evidences can you find when you look to what is going on?
Have a look. What do you see?
When you look to what's here, can you see something, an I, that controls the movements of the body?

At this moment, can you see a you controling anything the body is doing? Is a you controlling the blinking of the eyes, the breathing, a pain, a sensation, anything?

If you move an arm - up and down, left and right - do you see any evidence that there is a small you, somewhere inside the body, controlling the movement?

I'm not saying there is absolutely no control over the body. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, it depends on how you think about control. You may think control is real, not real, or something in between, and that's ok. The question is if there is a you that can control the body. Or anything else :)

Take care,
C

[Wintonia]

Hi C,

Thank you for making me comfortable with this process. I was starting to feel like perhaps there was a time limit and for some reason I just was not able to move passed my own 'thinking'. These are really challenging questions that you put across. Like I have never really thought about what really amounts to control....and to look and see if there is a 'me' that controls this using the last exercises that we did leads me to the visible conclusion that there isn't one. Which triggers confusion within me, if there isn't a me controlling any of this, then how is it happening? How are choices being made, if in fact they are indeed being made? I life just happening all by chance?

Please help me move passed this point. Spent a considerable amount of time here.

J.

[Canfora]

Hi Wintonia,

Thank you for making me comfortable with this process. I was starting to feel like perhaps there was a time limit and for some reason I just was not able to move passed my own 'thinking'.

Yes, don't worry with any of that.

Which triggers confusion within me, if there isn't a me controlling any of this, then how is it happening? How are choices being made, if in fact they are indeed being made? I life just happening all by chance?

My guess is as good as yours. I believe some questions are so abstract, that the accuracy of the answers can't be verified. If you ask those questions to 10 different people you will get 10 different answers and there is a huge probability that all of them where learned somewhere. How would you find reliable answers to these questions?

Please help me move passed this point. Spent a considerable amount of time here.

Well. You are strugling with making sense of something. Let's imagine that you get it. You know how things are. Does the experience itself change?

I'm not talking about the mental state, the story that is going on at the moment in your mind.

The experience of seeing something. Does it change if the thinking changes?

Spend some time looking around. Have a look. What can the thinking do?

Can you think something into something else? Don't think about this. Have a go at it. Can you think something to be a different colour, a shape to be a different shape, something soft to be something hard? Can you think thoughts into something else? Or sensations? Or this moment? Even your ideas. Can the thinking think new, original thoughts?

What can thoughts do?

(I'm not saying that their aren't a huge part of experience, aren't important, etc, etc. This is more about seeing if they have the magic power to change what is being percieved at the moment)

Take care,
C