See the sought

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Bluejay
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Re: See the sought

Postby Bluejay » Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:08 pm

Yes, feel free to let this soak in. This thread will be here as long as this site is here. Just write here and I should receive a notification.

When you're ready, it is probably good to further explore from different angles, and if nothing else is needed, we can wrap things up so you get access to the LU FB group and I share some resources at the end for next steps.
"What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle." -Rumi

My website: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/

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tia22
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Re: See the sought

Postby tia22 » Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:19 pm

Oh yes, I certainly will follow up as I know this is the very very beginning. I will greatly appreciate your guidance in navigating what is to come.

In this moment I feel compelled to just steep in this unbinding. I have no doubt I will be reaching out soon- just can’t say when. Within the next month or so probably ♥️

Thank you, Henri! Talk soon

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Re: See the sought

Postby Bluejay » Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:23 pm

Sounds good! Enjoy 👍
"What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle." -Rumi

My website: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/

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tia22
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Re: See the sought

Postby tia22 » Fri Dec 08, 2023 6:15 pm

I’m back :)

I have noticed a pattern coming up and it really seems to be causing harm to myself and my relationships.
It revolves around a strong sense of unworthiness. It just occurred to me yesterday that a lot of my “problems” stem from feeling “less than” other people. I then feel the need to prove that I am better or reassure myself that I am in fact better than that person. This process is all internal, but does cause me to be snippy with people when I feel inferior in some way.

Do you have any suggestions on how to work with this? I see it in so many different aspects of my life- it’s alarming.

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Bluejay
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Re: See the sought

Postby Bluejay » Fri Dec 08, 2023 6:40 pm

Welcome back!
Do you have any suggestions on how to work with this? I see it in so many different aspects of my life- it’s alarming.
The fact that you're noticing it is a good sign. The pattern has likely run without you noticing, and it's now being noticed.

Look at what you're trying to avoid by going into the story of unworthiness or the reaction of being snippy. It is an avoidance of a sensation in the body that at some point didn't feel safe or OK to feel.
"What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle." -Rumi

My website: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/

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tia22
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Re: See the sought

Postby tia22 » Fri Dec 08, 2023 7:43 pm

Look at what you're trying to avoid by going into the story of unworthiness or the reaction of being snippy. It is an avoidance of a sensation in the body that at some point didn't feel safe or OK to feel.
Ok- I will do that. What would be your suggestion once I see the feelings/emotions that I have been avoiding? Try to sit with them without a narrative? Try to comfort that part of me that feels unsafe?

Thanks, Henri ♥️

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Re: See the sought

Postby Bluejay » Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:20 pm

I would say whatever feels intuitively right, but as a general rule you can't go wrong with feeling everything.

For example, you can say: I am completely worthy

Then notice the images, words, sensations that come up and welcome everything, just letting the feeling expand and do whatever it wants. Kind of like inviting a troubled friend over for tea.

While you're doing that, are you interested in continuing with pointers to explore the separate self, or do you want to focus solely on feeling for now?
"What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle." -Rumi

My website: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/

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tia22
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Re: See the sought

Postby tia22 » Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:32 pm

While you're doing that, are you interested in continuing with pointers to explore the separate self, or do you want to focus solely on feeling for now?
I think I would like to continue with pointers! Thanks! Things seem to be fluctuating a lot, it may be nice to have some direction, though I sense this can not be directed. We shall see :)

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Re: See the sought

Postby Bluejay » Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:38 pm

Alright!

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?


Let me know what you find :)
"What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle." -Rumi

My website: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/

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tia22
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Re: See the sought

Postby tia22 » Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:07 pm

Ok- this was a really fun one!! Very eye opening to really look at the nature of thought!

I did find it very difficult to notice thoughts without also noticing their content. Is it possible to do that? I’m not sure what that experience would be like. It seems that when i noticed them (attention moved to them) I couldn’t ignore the content and only investigate the nature of them. It seems to be a merged experience. Not sure if this makes sense.
Where are they coming from and going to?
I have no clue. The thoughts say “the mind”, but where and what is the mind? It feels like a space in my head, but that is a thought too. No clue.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
I did nothing at all- just noticed them appearing. Is it the attention that seemingly makes them appear?? Is attention a though?? Oof- not sure.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No, it is becoming abundantly clear that there is nothing under “my” control in the thought space. The me wants to feel like it has control, but I notice that there is no conscious pre-thought decision of what the next thought will be.
Can you predict the next thought?
Not a chance.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?
The thoughts may attempt to do that, but it is just reflection upon reflection of thoughts. No “me” doing that.
Do you control where attention goes?
Nope. There seemed to be effort applied to keeping attention in the thought space for 30 minutes. Though it seems that every other sensational experience is seen through the lens of thought. If that makes sense. It seems very rare to see, hear or feel without labels showing up. This seems to be completely involuntary as well- there is nothing here that could adjust that experience and remove thought from it.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Not at all. What decides that a specific thought is painful or negative rather than positive? This is all very fascinating.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Absolutely not. There is nothing there to know or decide what comes next.
It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?
I don’t see any order or sequence at all. There seems to be some familiarity to them, maybe?

This has got me all jumbled…. Who is the “me” typing out the answers to these questions? Who is doing any of this?

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Bluejay
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Re: See the sought

Postby Bluejay » Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:56 pm

I did find it very difficult to notice thoughts without also noticing their content. Is it possible to do that? I’m not sure what that experience would be like. It seems that when i noticed them (attention moved to them) I couldn’t ignore the content and only investigate the nature of them. It seems to be a merged experience. Not sure if this makes sense.
It's fine to notice the content, but don't get involved in it. Sounds like you did splendidly :)
The me wants to feel like it has control, but I notice that there is no conscious pre-thought decision of what the next thought will be.
And what is the me? Is it not just another thought--a thought that is not controlled?
Nope. There seemed to be effort applied to keeping attention in the thought space for 30 minutes. Though it seems that every other sensational experience is seen through the lens of thought. If that makes sense. It seems very rare to see, hear or feel without labels showing up. This seems to be completely involuntary as well- there is nothing here that could adjust that experience and remove thought from it.
Another way of asking this: Can you predict where attention moves before it moves?

What gave rise to the effort for 30 minutes?
What decides that a specific thought is painful or negative rather than positive? This is all very fascinating.
Yes, what does decide that? Can you see in direct experience how that judgment is made?
This has got me all jumbled…. Who is the “me” typing out the answers to these questions? Who is doing any of this?
Maybe who is not the right word here?

What makes a flower grow, or a baby smile?
"What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle." -Rumi

My website: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/

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tia22
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Re: See the sought

Postby tia22 » Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:45 pm

And what is the me? Is it not just another thought--a thought that is not controlled?
This is what is being grappled with. There doesn’t seem to be anything here, except for apparent thoughts, sensations, sound, sight , feelings, and this sense of existence or aliveness. “I” or “me” is typed because I don’t know what else to call this mystery of whatever this is 😂
I definitely feel like “this” is alive and at times it seems to be “me”, but then I look more closely and can’t find anything. I can not find a thinker or a doer, but there does seem to be a perceiver! I want to explore this more. What is perceiving or experiencing?
Another way of asking this: Can you predict where attention moves before it moves?

What gave rise to the effort for 30 minutes?
I can not predict where attention will move. It seems to move on its own volition, or under the direction of something unconscious to me.
Not sure what gave rise to the effort.
Yes, what does decide that? Can you see in direct experience how that judgment is made?
This question was in regard to what decides that a thought is deemed negative or positive.
It seems that the thoughts are judging and “deciding” what is negative or positive. Though the body does seem to get involved- there will be sensations that seemingly feel negative or positive. But, AGAIN, these sensations also seem to LABELED as negative or positive by the mind. The conditioned mind is habitually making judgements? Maybe
Sorry to answer all of your questions with more questions 😂
Maybe who is not the right word here?

What makes a flower grow, or a baby smile
You are 100% correct, WHO does not quite fit this inquiry. WHAT does not seem to fit either, but it feels like a more accurate descriptor than who. WHO implies a person in our language, this is not a person. Though can’t say what it is. “IT” feels like the mystery of LIFE. An eternal question that could never be answered within the limitations of language. This mystery is what makes a flower grown and an innocent baby smile.

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Bluejay
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Re: See the sought

Postby Bluejay » Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:58 pm

What is perceiving or experiencing?
Check out this pointer on seeing...

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'doing' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' and so on.

In this exercise, we'll focus on seeing.

So, close your eyes.

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things going on, but the specifics aren't important.

I'm going to keep things simple and use the term 'blackness' for whatever you can see while your eyes are closed.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing or perceiving the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?


What do you find?

Can an inherent see-er be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

But, AGAIN, these sensations also seem to LABELED as negative or positive by the mind. The conditioned mind is habitually making judgements? Maybe
See if you can feel a sensation without any label. There may be a label at first, but focus as much as you can on the sensation and eventually the label disappears. What happens?
It seems that the thoughts are judging and “deciding” what is negative or positive.
Where does the information come that enables thoughts to judge what is good or bad?

Conditioning? Society? Parents? Language? Social media? Everything? Is there a you in that?
Though can’t say what it is. “IT” feels like the mystery of LIFE. An eternal question that could never be answered within the limitations of language. This mystery is what makes a flower grown and an innocent baby smile.
Here's another pointer. I don't usually put two in the same post, but this seems relevant:

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground and so on?

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'you' autonomously intervene into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look cool for a certain person) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'you' are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?


Enjoy :)
"What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle." -Rumi

My website: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/

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tia22
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Re: See the sought

Postby tia22 » Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:18 pm

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
No. It is labeled as ‘blackness’, but what it IS is not known.
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
There is ‘blackness’ and then what perceives the blackness. But something about the experience in this way- it seems that the “perception” or “perceiver” might be a thought??? Yeah, the perceiver feels like “me”, Tia, the person…. A thought. Can that be true? All of my experience is generated by the mind??? Where is this “person”? Or even the sense of this person? What is a sense? 🤯
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
Apparently only in the mind. Only when I think about a perceiver does it appear. Whoa
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing or perceiving the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
Not without thought. If that is true then what is real? Is the body imagined? The senses? If all of that were to fall away, what would be left? Can “nothing”see, hear, taste, smell, feel or think? Can “nothing” experience?

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Bluejay
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Re: See the sought

Postby Bluejay » Sun Dec 10, 2023 4:26 pm

All of my experience is generated by the mind???
What is the mind? Can you find it? 👹
But something about the experience in this way- it seems that the “perception” or “perceiver” might be a thought??? Yeah, the perceiver feels like “me”, Tia, the person…. A thought. Can that be true? All of my experience is generated by the mind??? Where is this “person”? Or even the sense of this person? What is a sense? 🤯
When doing the exercise, do you find an actual perceiver?

What do you find that is labeled as the perceiver?

If it is a sensation, can a sensation perceive? If it is a thought, can a thought perceive?
Apparently only in the mind. Only when I think about a perceiver does it appear. Whoa
👻
Not without thought. If that is true then what is real? Is the body imagined? The senses? If all of that were to fall away, what would be left? Can “nothing”see, hear, taste, smell, feel or think? Can “nothing” experience?
When you see, is there anything other than the seen (colors/blackness)?

There is knowing of what is seen, right? Look for the knowing. Is it separate, or does the seen/color = knowing?

If yes, does there need to be a 'knower' separate from the known/seen?

Remember, what you're discovering is what it has always been like.

If you ever start feeling a bit floaty or out of touch, you can always ground yourself by doing mundane things like the dishes, cleaning, walking outside, taking a shower, and so on. You can also focus on the present moment, so touching things, focusing on what you see, hear, etc.

Didn't seem like you were going to floaty land, but good to know :)
"What hurts you, blesses you. Darkness is your candle." -Rumi

My website: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/


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