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Cliffwww
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Re: Registration

Postby Cliffwww » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:48 pm

What is it what makes it feel like it?
Interesting question
1 ) I don’t think that there is a separate doer thinker observer owner anywhere
2) pure speculation is that it an artifact of various schemata (ie attention scheme or body scheme ) that is utilized by a person to crate a model of the environment in order to be an effective agent in that environment .
Good regulator theory states in order to regulate a system well you need to include a model of the regulator it self . These are concepts arising from A.I.
Is it a feeling like in physical sensation or a feeling like a word in thoughts content?
It feels like a contraction ,so physical but is triggered by a thought of I me or mine . I.E. “I want”. Process is condition thought ,on smelling pizza,” I want” / contraction/ recognition of selfing / breath/ drop into awareness/ release
If there is no Cliff and no Jadzia doing the choosing - how does choosing happen? Could you watch it carefully and tell what you find?
I think most if not all decisions takes place in the subconscious processing in the brain . We are only conscious of the product .
This is all speculation. what is important is there is no self separate or independent from or in the ever changing processes of a person .

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Jadzia
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Re: Registration

Postby Jadzia » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:50 pm

Cliff, there is a big difference between thinking about and looking, directly looking at what one finds or not.
Thinking about aka intellectual thinking doesn't lead very far in this investigation, only to intellectual understanding, which isn't bad in itself but not what we aim at here.

You wrote
"There are patterns that feel like decisions. "
I asked
"What is it what makes it feel like it?"

Let's have a look at this together:
What gives the impressionof a feeling?
When looking there is nothing one can see, taste, feel (physical sensation),smell, hear, or? Neither the pattern, nor the feeling, nor the decision, or?
What is left of which can be experienced when there is nothing experienced via senses?
Thought. Thought is something which can be noticed, right? Like in "Hey, here is a thought!"

So it is thought which "tells" about that this feel like decision. This is part of the thought story.

Always check with senses first - can it be found yes or no? No, then it happens in thougth. OK?

So if something appears in thought, the thought content, is it real, a fact?
Some thoughts point to something which is in actual experience - like"This is a car" as colour/form = seing.
Other thoughts point to nothing in actual experience - meaning they point to nothing real, but to another thougth with content.
I think most if not all decisions takes place in the subconscious processing in the brain . We are only conscious of the product .
This is all speculation. what is important is there is no self separate or independent from or in the ever changing processes of a person .
Right, this is speculation, thinking about, intellectualizing.
Have a look at your actual experience - do you find subconscious or brain in AE? Just looking with using the senses?

Where do you find person?

For a while check as often as you can what is really there, and what is only there in content of thougths.

Love,
Jadzia

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Cliffwww
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Re: Registration

Postby Cliffwww » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:54 am

Dear Jadiza
What is left of which can be experienced when there is nothing experienced via senses?
Thought. Thought is something which can be noticed, right? Like in "Hey, here is a thought!"

So it is thought which "tells" about that this feel like decision. This is part of the thought story.
Point well taken ! So it is.

Some thoughts point to something which is in actual experience . YEt they are stil thoughts about the acutal experiece not the AE.
do you find subconscious or brain in AE? Just looking with using the senses?
Neither are found in AE
Where do you find person?
NO person in AE NO person to be found ........Just a thought

Warmest Regards
Cliff

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Jadzia
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Re: Registration

Postby Jadzia » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:35 am

Some thoughts point to something which is in actual experience . YEt they are stil thoughts about the acutal experiece not the AE.
Yes, exactly.
The thought appears in AE but the content can’t be found in AE. This is good to know and most certainly helps to unravel “heated” thinking.

Can you look out of the window? Do it and let the gaze rest on something. The name tag/label will appear “xxx”.
Can the “xxx” be seen? Can it really be seen?
do you find subconscious or brain in AE? Just looking with using the senses?
Neither are found in AE
Where do you find person?
NO person in AE NO person to be found ........Just a thought
How does it feel? No person, no brain, no subconscious in AE?
Are all these labels just offers of thoughts? Attempts to describe something? Does the something needs describing?

Love,
Jadzia

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Cliffwww
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Re: Registration

Postby Cliffwww » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:36 pm

The thought appears in AE but the content can’t be found in AE. This is good to know and most certainly helps to unravel “heated” thinking.
Clear simple direct and helpful tks
Can you look out of the window? Do it and let the gaze rest on something. The name tag/label will appear “xxx”.
Can the “xxx” be seen? Can it really be seen?
The xxx cannot be seen. I can notice the urge to start naming> this is a good meditation
do you find subconscious or brain in AE? Just looking with using the senses?
Neither are found in AE
Are all these labels just offers of thoughts? Attempts to describe something? Does the something needs describing?
The "something" doesn't need describing. And is not "there" except for the description.
Are these descriptions or labels useful as conventions for interacting with others? They seem to be at times and not useful at other times. {Recognizing that this is thought not AE. Just feeling my way into integrating these insights into the day to day social interactions these questions don't need to be answered unless you have some insight you feel appropriate to share from your own experience. } FYI the Buddha refused to answer lots of questions because supposedly he felt that the answers did not lead to the lessening of suffering so were deemed not appropriate. In other words, I'm ok if you answer or not.It is not a test or a challenge. Just don't want any misunderstanding.
Infinite gratitude
Cliff

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Jadzia
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Re: Registration

Postby Jadzia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:30 pm

The xxx cannot be seen. I can notice the urge to start naming> this is a good meditation
Exactly, all there is seen is colour and form (and even this is a label.....).
Does colour/form know anything about a label or what labels they are?
Does any label influence the something which appears in AE? Does it describe it or just name it?
Are these descriptions or labels useful as conventions for interacting with others? They seem to be at times and not useful at other times.
They are useful, communication without words, aka labels, is tricky – one could use sign language, but each sign means a word, so this might still be the same.

Stay for a while with AE and find out how many thoughts point to something in AE and how many thoughts point to other thoughts(aka beliefs, identification, learned knowledge/memory, ect.).

Love
Jadzia

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Cliffwww
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Re: Registration

Postby Cliffwww » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:14 pm

Dear Jadzia
Does any label influence the something which appears in AE? Does it describe it or just name it?
Labels seem to influence AE. Apples appear red (not yellow and green and reddish ) bananas yellow (not shades of brown and green and yellow ) Thoughts can direct where our attention goes so effects what we see and dont see this can be a benefit or a problem.
Stay for a while with AE and find out how many thoughts point to something in AE and how many thoughts point to other thoughts(aka beliefs, identification, learned knowledge/memory, ect.).
I will practice being mindful of thoughts and note what they point to today.
So far most(maybe all) of the thoughts point to other thoughts(aka beliefs, identification, learned knowledge/memory, ect.)

Warm regards
Cliff

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Jadzia
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Re: Registration

Postby Jadzia » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:00 am

Labels seem to influence AE
Have a closer look here, really look.
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
So far most(maybe all) of the thoughts point to other thoughts(aka beliefs, identification, learned knowledge/memory, ect.)
Amazing, isn’t it?
Can any of this content of thought be found in AE?

Love,
Jadzia

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Cliffwww
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Re: Registration

Postby Cliffwww » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:41 pm

Dear Jadzia
The purpose of LU is limited to seeing/realizing that self only exists in thoughts and isn't the thinker, doer, chooser, decider , a real entity ect. as usually is believed.
Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Can you answer with a 100% yes?
100%
YES 100% That being said ....
MY experience is that NOTHING has any inherent existence INCLUDING colors and AE. It is because of this that AE (actual experience) is effected by labels.
Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.
Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
I suggest that AE is also a creation of the mind. There are no inherent color, sounds etc. or foundations of perception.
If you eliminate the inherent objects you eliminate the inherent subject (self). Everything that we experience as existing is a product of our minds and as such are not real independent entities. Just process.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/541927/f ... ive-colors Color
https://academic.oup.com/chemse/article/34/3/187/326291 Sound
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-37877-w Touch
https://www.illusionsindex.org/ir/checkershadow Inherent or realitive ? Illusion
http://www.labofmisfits.com/illusiondem ... %2014.html Inherent or realitve? THIS ONE IS FUN

Ultimately everything just is arising, just is unfolding.

The purpose of LU is limited to seeing/realizing that self only exists in thoughts and isn't the thinker. So it can be enjoyable watching these thoughts arise with no one thinking them or a watcher.

Thank you for a deepening experience of "selflessness".

Love
Cliff

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Jadzia
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Re: Registration

Postby Jadzia » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:46 pm

AE is just another concept, yes. And a wonderful one for guiding.
100%
YES 100% That being said ....
Enjoy!

Love,
Jadzia

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Jadzia
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Re: Registration

Postby Jadzia » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:48 pm

Love the illusion ones.

https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how ... us_reality

Love
Jadzia

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Cliffwww
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Re: Registration

Postby Cliffwww » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:39 pm

Dear jadzia
Very much enjoyed the talk .
Being is pretty fascinating and wonderful stuff .
It really is enough just as it is .
Love cliff

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Jadzia
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Re: Registration

Postby Jadzia » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:02 am

A persistent knowing (Experience) of nonself not an intellectual one.
and still I belive that there is a brain that reacts to external and internal stimuli and effects my emotional and mental states
You wrote this in your introduction, how about it now?

What did change in your life since you started the investigation? Any changes, emotional, way of reactions whatever...

Love,
Jadzia

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Cliffwww
Posts: 70
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Re: Registration

Postby Cliffwww » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:43 am

What did change in your life since you started the investigation? Any changes, emotional, way of reactions whatever...
Things are more relaxed , there is a flow to life that seems natural enjoyable . A sense that things are as they should be . There isn’t a pressure to seek to find or be something or someone. It seems funny to even think about trying to . Things are fun and pleasant and sometimes difficult and unpleasant but rarely ( for now ) but it’s persistently OK even when it’s not . This may not make sense but I’m trying my best to be honest. I gues you can describe it as a basic sense of well being .
Part 1

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Cliffwww
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:16 pm

Re: Registration

Postby Cliffwww » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:02 am

A persistent knowing (Experience) of nonself not an intellectual one
.
There are both
There is a persistent knowing not a thinking . When there is at thinking of self there is an intellectual understanding of what it is. Imagine you are alone walking down a dark street you feel someone behind you you turn and look, no one there just a feeling . You think you forget you keys 🔑 you check your pockets they are there , just a thought . Just a feeling just a thought . Better yet you have The feeling you forget your keys and then remember you don’t have any keys no need to check.

and still I belive that there is a brain that reacts to external and internal stimuli and effects my emotional and mental states
You wrote this in your introduction, how about it now?
Sure makes sense just drop the “my “ !


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